R.I.P. Sonny Franzese

[Pete]

This worshipping gangsters/making them out to be misunderstood rogues/law enforcement are the real crooks....vibe, is ruining this forum and is an insult to all the posters on here that contribute incredible work. We’re losing brain cells over here.

If you’re not Italian from NYC then you wouldn’t really understand not everyone is cut from the same cloth.. go ahead bash me all you want I really don’t give a fuck what you or any other 40 year old mob groupie from Iowa thinks..

While I agree to a certain extent people that haven’t grown up around this might not certain understand things it’s very off base to say someone can’t understand something because they’re not Italian and from nyc. Me and wiseguy have had our batttles but he’s smart enought to know things are looked at different in some cities than others. Hes no dummy. Yes the mob is looked at differently in ny than Utah. No one would disagree but that’s different than saying he doesn’t understand the difference. Don’t want speak for someone else especially wiseguy lol but this stuff about your not from ny or Italian doesn’t hold water

[mafiastudent]

I hate to bring the race thing into this and I don't want this to turn into a racial argument. However, while I might empathize with the plight of a black person, I don't know what it is to experience what they feel is happening to them because I'm a white person. It's two different things. Same with any other nationality.

In my particular town, people of color are targeted by law enforcement -- being pulled over on a regular basis, whatever it is, to maintain the integrity of the town which is 95 percent white. Now, I might think it's outrageous, but can I understand how these people might view it from their POV? No. I don't understand because I've never experienced it from that perspective.

Another example would be politicians who claim the understand the struggle of the middle class but have never experienced it themselves. They might "understand" because they talk to people, read things or whatever, but don't really understand because they've never lived through it.

[mafiastudent]

And Italians are overlooked because they are considered "white" so people don't look at it from their point of view. If you're an Italian in Indianapolis or Omaha or someplace it's not the same as if you're from a city that has a large Italian population with certain "labels" attached.

[mafiastudent]

And here's another example. A number of years ago I went into a store that had opened in a town near me that mostly only had locations in the south side of the city. I was the only white person in that store and when I went the butcher to ask for something specific, he said to me we don't get white people in here or whatever it was. So, I took that as they were suspicious of me as I would be suspicious of a black person coming into a store in my area. So this goes back to what I said above if you're in a city with a large Italian population with "labels" you're going to be looked on suspiciously if you're Italian no matter who you are.

[Angelo Santino]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

[DMC22]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

[Angelo Santino]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

[DMC22]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Did his friend on youtube ever finish what he was doing? Did he interview him or was he working on some kind of documentary? He just kept posting clips of him and Sonny sitting at tables and talking for a few seconds or whatever. The guy hated Michael that's for sure. Told the story about how Al Sharpton helped spring Sonny out.

[gohnjotti]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

Lindley DeVecchio was charged with aiding-and-abetting murders committed by Greg Scarpa, and he went to trial in the early 2000s. The case was dropped because the main witness, Linda Scarpa, couldn't keep her story straight, and Allie Persico allegedly had meetings with her to fix the case.

[DMC22]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

Lindley DeVecchio was charged with aiding-and-abetting murders committed by Greg Scarpa, and he went to trial in the early 2000s. The case was dropped because the main witness, Linda Scarpa, couldn't keep her story straight, and Allie Persico allegedly had meetings with her to fix the case.

I’m Sorry I should have been more specific... I meant in the federal courts. He was a federal agent one would assume he would be charged in their courts. You r right. It was a state case and it was dropped. But he was guilty. IMO

[gohnjotti]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

Lindley DeVecchio was charged with aiding-and-abetting murders committed by Greg Scarpa, and he went to trial in the early 2000s. The case was dropped because the main witness, Linda Scarpa, couldn't keep her story straight, and Allie Persico allegedly had meetings with her to fix the case.

I’m Sorry I should have been more specific... I meant in the federal courts. He was a federal agent one would assume he would be charged in their courts. You r right. It was a state case and it was dropped. But he was guilty. IMO

Agreed. When questioned about Scarpa, DeVecchio pleaded the Fifth the entire time, which is not something that a law-abiding FBI agent should feel the need to do.

[Pete]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

If someone wants to say bias there’s equal bias to Russian gangsters and cartel gangsters. Feds go where the cases are

[Angelo Santino]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

If someone wants to say bias there’s equal bias to Russian gangsters and cartel gangsters. Feds go where the cases are

As they should. The argument then goes to what resources and parameters should be allocated for anti-crime measures and how much, if at all, should civilians have their rights trampled with in the pursuit of order. It's complex and I'm not equipped to answer it. Early history doesn't help me with law. I can offer my opinions on the matter but I'm just another asshole.

1) Anastasia made an excellent point that the Phila. FBI made a deal with the boss to testify against the underboss and wondered if NY would have done the same with Gotti - Gravano. It's bad optics but could be argued that its all done with the aim of disrupting crime. It doesn't make me think badly of the FBI.

2) The FBI using, let's say, Massino's family as leverage by seizing ten million, taking the house, essentially putting his family on the street is still hard for me to feel sympathy for. It was all bought and paid for by organized crime, why should Massino sit in prison with the comfort of knowing that despite it all, his life in crime paid off?

3) I guess these points are kinda one sided, I'm not as skeptical of the FBI as others on here are. I enjoyed Gotti with Assante and Find Me Guilty with Vin Diesel. Both films are laced with anti-FBI bias. The agents are depicted as ugly, unfunny, stuffy, angry and bitter while the wiseguys are honorable, timely, admirable etc. They did the same shit with American Gangster. The NJ Branch of the Sopranos FBI had to have been the most incompetent ever, for god sakes stick McNulty and Bunk on 'em and Tony'd been off the streets by next season.

[Amershire_Ed]

Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

If someone wants to say bias there’s equal bias to Russian gangsters and cartel gangsters. Feds go where the cases are

As they should. The argument then goes to what resources and parameters should be allocated for anti-crime measures and how much, if at all, should civilians have their rights trampled with in the pursuit of order. It's complex and I'm not equipped to answer it. Early history doesn't help me with law. I can offer my opinions on the matter but I'm just another asshole.

1) Anastasia made an excellent point that the Phila. FBI made a deal with the boss to testify against the underboss and wondered if NY would have done the same with Gotti - Gravano. It's bad optics but could be argued that its all done with the aim of disrupting crime. It doesn't make me think badly of the FBI.

2) The FBI using, let's say, Massino's family as leverage by seizing ten million, taking the house, essentially putting his family on the street is still hard for me to feel sympathy for. It was all bought and paid for by organized crime, why should Massino sit in prison with the comfort of knowing that despite it all, his life in crime paid off?

3) I guess these points are kinda one sided, I'm not as skeptical of the FBI as others on here are. I enjoyed Gotti with Assante and Find Me Guilty with Vin Diesel. Both films are laced with anti-FBI bias. The agents are depicted as ugly, unfunny, stuffy, angry and bitter while the wiseguys are honorable, timely, admirable etc. They did the same shit with American Gangster. The NJ Branch of the Sopranos FBI had to have been the most incompetent ever, for god sakes stick McNulty and Bunk on 'em and Tony'd been off the streets by next season.

Lol @ the idea of Tony being able to get away with saying “did you wrap the package? Is there anyway the package could survive?” on his house phone with Bunk and McNulty on the case.