THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Snakes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:15 am I think the bosses also had some autonomy to make people but were told to make it pretty exclusive.

Thats another good point

Also Ferriola and LaPietra were quite close and your last statement again might explain the West/South/North/Heights theory which later simplifies on only three parts since the Heights crew went under the South Side group while the Cicero area switched in different groups, mainly west and south, through out the decades.

Yeah, I was going to reference that report. It identified 46 made guys in five different crews. The five street bosses known to the FBI at the time were Ferriola, LaPietra, Lombardo, Solano, and Pilotto, although two of those were imprisoned and another under indictment.

This was right when the FBI began making another big push to identify Outfit members (the first was in the late fifties and early sixties), so it's possible that a few were unaccounted for.

Confederate wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:17 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:15 am I think the bosses also had some autonomy to make people but were told to make it pretty exclusive. Also, anyone they made most likely had to be vetted by the top admin or other bosses. Because of the exclusivity of the various crews, perhaps it explains why guys like Frank Sr or Tocco were made years after we expected them to. The Outfit had less than 50 made guys on their rolls in the mid eighties, and this was before all of the big indictments went down.

I think it was more like 60 made guys in the 80's especially since Nick Calabrese gave that number and that might have been even later than the eighties when he made that estimate. Anyway, I agree with what you said about the autonomy, the bosses and the vetting by the very top. All good points that are spot on in my opinion.
As far as Frank Sr. or Tocco, let's just say they were already in position and nothing changed for them in Chicago from 1982 to 1983 if you catch my drift. They may have gone through that Ceremony much later than we expected because it wasn't urgent and it happened when the Top Bosses happened to get around to it. The only difference was that maybe now in 1983 they could be recognized by somebody in another Family if need be as a made guy in the National La Cosa Nostra with a proper introduction from someone.

A 1984 government report had the Outfit at 46 members. Another report in 1987 had it at 51 members.

Snakes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:15 am I think the bosses also had some autonomy to make people but were told to make it pretty exclusive. Also, anyone they made most likely had to be vetted by the top admin or other bosses. Because of the exclusivity of the various crews, perhaps it explains why guys like Frank Sr or Tocco were made years after we expected them to. The Outfit had less than 50 made guys on their rolls in the mid eighties, and this was before all of the big indictments went down.

I think it was more like 60 made guys in the 80's especially since Nick Calabrese gave that number and that might have been even later than the eighties when he made that estimate. Anyway, I agree with what you said about the autonomy, the bosses and the vetting by the very top. All good points that are spot on in my opinion.
As far as Frank Sr. or Tocco, let's just say they were already in position and nothing changed for them in Chicago from 1982 to 1983 if you catch my drift. They may have gone through that Ceremony much later than we expected because it wasn't urgent and it happened when the Top Bosses happened to get around to it. The only difference was that maybe now in 1983 they could be recognized by somebody in another Family if need be as a made guy in the National La Cosa Nostra with a proper introduction from someone.

I think the bosses also had some autonomy to make people but were told to make it pretty exclusive. Also, anyone they made most likely had to be vetted by the top admin or other bosses. Because of the exclusivity of the various crews, perhaps it explains why guys like Frank Sr or Tocco were made years after we expected them to. The Outfit had less than 50 made guys on their rolls in the mid eighties, and this was before all of the big indictments went down.

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:37 pm Chicago Outfit was always very secretive about these kinds of things. Guys in one Crew would not know a lot about inner workings of another Crew. Around 1990 forward, I doubt anybody knows anything about whether somebody was made into the National LCN or if they were only members of the Outfit. In particular, the lower ranking members of the Outfit and shelved guys would most probably not know anything about it. The Outfit had many serious problems from about 1985 forward and by the beginning of the 1990's they seemed to be more autonomous than ever. Frank Calabrese Sr. was madder than hell when he was introduced to someone as a made member of the Outfit when he was in prison. Nobody in the Outfit wanted anyone to know anything about it. For example, John DiFronzo could have made somebody like Marco D'Amico with just DiFronzo and maybe one other person present along with D'Amico and that would have been it. I seriously doubt after 1990 there were any group making sessions with a lot of people present. If there were, we have no evidence of it. Also, the regular answer given by any Outfit Guy from Cerone to Lombardo to Jimmy Marcello on down the line is that they were not made members of anything. If you listen to them, there were all simply a bunch of guys who were professional gamblers. According to my findings, that is the stock answer always given to protect themselves and one another. Obviously, the exception to the rule was Nick Calabrese because he became an Informant and talked about his Ceremony in 1983 and possibly another one in 1988. So, when a shelved or retired Outfit guy willingly gives an interview and says someone is made or not made, there is a motive behind the answer because they really don't know. My 2 cents

Nicely said. I remember reading regarding the old days when one member speculates about another member being possibly made in some crew, or one member tells another that someone was made long time ago....my point is like yours meaning we have many infos for that same theory....for example Accardo was telling Giancana on who was the boss on the commission besides Sam being the number two guy who shouldve known at least who was the boss of what family. Or Cerone, a crew boss, telling the Outfits number two guy Ferraro at the time, on who was in Rockfords top hierarchy. The final point is they didnt care

Chicago Outfit was always very secretive about these kinds of things. Guys in one Crew would not know a lot about inner workings of another Crew. Around 1990 forward, I doubt anybody knows anything about whether somebody was made into the National LCN or if they were only members of the Outfit. In particular, the lower ranking members of the Outfit and shelved guys would most probably not know anything about it. The Outfit had many serious problems from about 1985 forward and by the beginning of the 1990's they seemed to be more autonomous than ever. Frank Calabrese Sr. was madder than hell when he was introduced to someone as a made member of the Outfit when he was in prison. Nobody in the Outfit wanted anyone to know anything about it. For example, John DiFronzo could have made somebody like Marco D'Amico with just DiFronzo and maybe one other person present along with D'Amico and that would have been it. I seriously doubt after 1990 there were any group making sessions with a lot of people present. If there were, we have no evidence of it. Also, the regular answer given by any Outfit Guy from Cerone to Lombardo to Jimmy Marcello on down the line is that they were not made members of anything. If you listen to them, there were all simply a bunch of guys who were professional gamblers. According to my findings, that is the stock answer always given to protect themselves and one another. Obviously, the exception to the rule was Nick Calabrese because he became an Informant and talked about his Ceremony in 1983 and possibly another one in 1988. So, when a shelved or retired Outfit guy willingly gives an interview and says someone is made or not made, there is a motive behind the answer because they really don't know. My 2 cents

Confederate wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:18 am In addition, From my understanding, Giancana lost everything he had overseas to Foreign Governments. They simply took it over. This happens all the time with these guys. =

Yeah, that was also Jimmy Frattiano's take on it in his interviews in the Crime Inc. docu:

''Johnny (Roselli) told me he had a lot of money when he left, a few million dollars, 2 - 3 million. I understand Mexico just ripped him off, and when he came back he was broke. He tried to take over where he left off and next thing I know he's dead''.

Confederate wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:18 am

BillyBrizzi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:25 pm Guys like Capone and Giancana also spent a lot more money than the guys you mention I reckon. I think the amount of cash squandered by these kind of guys on broads and gambling etc. is very scary..

In addition, From my understanding, Giancana lost everything he had overseas to Foreign Governments. They simply took it over. This happens all the time with these guys. Whatever they supposedly owned or controlled somehow always ends up in the hands of either their partners or the Feds who confiscate it. The Mobster's wife only sees what her husband legitimately owned on paper (many times that doesn't happen either) or whatever cash he actually had in his possession which is always a lot less than what she expected.

Well that might explain Sams lost treasure

BillyBrizzi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:25 pm Guys like Capone and Giancana also spent a lot more money than the guys you mention I reckon. I think the amount of cash squandered by these kind of guys on broads and gambling etc. is very scary..

In addition, From my understanding, Giancana lost everything he had overseas to Foreign Governments. They simply took it over. This happens all the time with these guys. Whatever they supposedly owned or controlled somehow always ends up in the hands of either their partners or the Feds who confiscate it. The Mobster's wife only sees what her husband legitimately owned on paper (many times that doesn't happen either) or whatever cash he actually had in his possession which is always a lot less than what she expected.

In fact thats how these guys invested their dirty cash.

Heres another example..."Battaglia lived in a big house at 1114 N. Ridgeland in Oak Park. In those days if you were considered a big shot in the Chicago Outfit, there was no better place to buy a home than Oak Park and River Forest. Battaglia's home was valued at $50,000 or $390,000 in 2015 dollars. Bataglia also owned a huge 400 acre farm since the late 1940’s, which was located 55 miles northwest of Chicago on Damisch Road in Pingree Grove, Illinois. It was a huge land which was named The Free Meadows Stock Farm and Horse Breeders and was listed to the caretaker of the place known as Bill Meyers. The farm was located one-half mile north of Pingree Grove, on the east side of Damisch Road with land holdings on both sides of the highway, the more extensive being on the east side. In fact, the property had three different residences, a very large modern swimming pool, a race track and several barns. On all of the property Battaglia had signs posted indicating that the land was posted for shooting games and that all trespassers would be arrested. A mailbox which was placed at one of the entrances of the farm bore the name of Bill Meyers. The farm was valued at $500,000, or 4 million dollars in today’s money. Battaglia owned very expensive trained race horses at the farm and also all kinds of animal stock. Battaglia’s horses were used at the Arlington Park Race Track in Arlington Park, Illinois. Battaglia’s trainer for the horses was Arnold Winick, brother of Albert Winick president of The Rallson Corporation. Battaglia secretly owned the Arlington Race Track and constantly visited the place and gave orders to Albert Winick. Battaglia’s underling Joseph Rocco was also a horse trainer at the farm and was also a constant companion of his boss. Battaglia became very well known in the farming community of Pingree Grove and also a very respectable citizen in that area. Many low level hoodlums visited Battaglia at this place where he usually used them for painting fences or do some repairs on the farm buildings. He even used this farm for loan sharking activities or in underworld slang, juice operations. For example Sid Sheridan, who was a local contractor, was on “juice” to Battaglia. Sheridan was paying off his juice loan by boarding horses at the farm, and paid $60 per month for each one of them. Most of the horses were sold to Sheridan by Battaglia at an extremely over-valued price and that on this semblance of legal transaction Battaglia was able to issue the juice loans.

Battaglia also owned 200 acres of property in Kane County, Illinois and also in Aurora, Illinois. The name of Battaglia’s sidekick Joseph Rocco was in the records of the Marshall Savings and Loan Company as regards the purchase of a sizeable piece of real estate near Aurora by an Oakhurst realty company. "

"In 1948, Paul Ricca owned a summer estate which was located near Long Beach, Indiana, and worth about $100,000 at the time. The estate had a tennis court and huge underground garage which was large enough for fifty cars. He also had a farm in Kendall County, Illinois, about 1,100 acres there, which has been managed, or was, during his imprisonment by Francis Curry, a coin machine racket boss from the Joliet area. Few years later Ricca also bought another huge $80,000 mansion in Miami Beach at 4385 Pine Tree Drive, which was one of the swankiest sections of the resort city. Before buying the house Ricca complied with local police regulations relating to ex-convicts. 

Also when the National Syndicate took over the International Teamster Union during the mid 1950’s, which was headed by Jimmy Hoffa, Ricca again exercised his power by directing Hoffa to purchase Ricca's summer house for $150,000, even though the property was valued at only $85,000. So on June 19, 1956, since the property was on the name of Ricca’s wife Nancy, she first deeded it to one of Ricca’s attorneys James Imburgio Bulger and later on August 8, Bulger sold the property to the Teamsters."

I remember that Sam Battaglia together with Phil Alderisio and Irwin Weiner opened an investment firm known as the I.S.P. Company. The “I” presumably stood for Irwin, the “S” for Sam, and the “P” for Phil, and their company maintained very large amounts of cash in the Exchange National Bank. Records at the bank showed that a trust was formed between Marshall Caifano, Irwin Weiner and his wife Lillian, Phil Alderisio and his wife Molly, Albert Frabotta and wife Santina, and Sam Battaglia and his wife Angela. The trust covered adjoining property which was located at 3240 through 3250 South Wentworth in Chicago.

Confederate wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:31 pm Yes, I remember reading where Inendino laundered some of his money. However, I don't believe Accardo had a personal net worth anywhere close to 700 million. Those figures are always WAY exaggerated as Wiseguy and I have pointed out several times. Two examples come to mind:
1). Meyer Lansky. An exaggerated figure of 300 million was being thrown around and his family inherited 6 million.
2). Al Capone. His 1929 GROSS of $100 million was for the WHOLE ENTIRE Outfit and it was an estimate made by the Feds from the books they recovered for his income tax trial. Capone's PERSONAL NET INCOME before taxes was somewhere between $5 and $10 million. The Feds based their case against him on that figure which is way more realistic.
Side Note: many times these high level guys in the past only had A PIECE of something big and when they died, the Orgaization took it over so it REALLY was not ever their PERSONAl net worth.

Yes putting a dollar amount on these guys is probably harder than figuring out Outfit Leadership history lol. I agree with you. But in the LCN community in my opinion it's just like other people in that you have people that made good, some even better, some lucky, some in the right place at the right time, some have done terrible money. If accurate look at the made guy in Donnie Brasco, Lefty Ruggiero from what I remember he didn't have 2 nickles to rub together. The first problem with the article about Accardo's worth, it could have been an estimate of what he made in over 60 years in organized crime, I don't remember. We don't know how many legitimate businesses he owned outright or had partnerships in. Did he invest some of his legal money in the stock market. How much money did he actually collect from the Las Vegas skim for himself. It's fair to say the guy was had alot more than the average guy, how much more we don't know. When I routed orders for a warehouse I worked for the truck driver for ABF Freight Company told me that ABF really stood for Accardo Battaglia and I want to say Ferraro. Of course I don't know if this is actually true. Of course it supposedly stood for Arkansas Best Freight. That was approximately 1982 ish. Now a long time ago.

Yes, I remember reading where Inendino laundered some of his money. However, I don't believe Accardo had a personal net worth anywhere close to 700 million. Those figures are always WAY exaggerated as Wiseguy and I have pointed out several times. Two examples come to mind:
1). Meyer Lansky. An exaggerated figure of 300 million was being thrown around and his family inherited 6 million.
2). Al Capone. His 1929 GROSS of $100 million was for the WHOLE ENTIRE Outfit and it was an estimate made by the Feds from the books they recovered for his income tax trial. Capone's PERSONAL NET INCOME before taxes was somewhere between $5 and $10 million. The Feds based their case against him on that figure which is way more realistic.
Side Note: many times these high level guys in the past only had A PIECE of something big and when they died, the Orgaization took it over so it REALLY was not ever their PERSONAl net worth.

Confederate wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:08 pm

Frank wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:52 am

BillyBrizzi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:41 am

Villain wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:17 am In plane words, even though Giancana was blinded by the money, power and pussy, still by the end of the day he was one quite smart Mafioso and was probably forced to change the traditional ways because of the huge government heat.

Giancana is very underestimated as a mobster imo.. Franzese always says that since Al Capone nobody made as much money for the mob as himself, but I personally think that Giancana made the most money. We never will get an answer to that question of course, but Giancana operated on an international level during the Golden era of the mob from the early 30's to the early 70's..

If we're talking about profits for the organization, then yeah but if talk about personal profits, then I think that none of those two ever made the real cash. I mean when Capone went to jail the Mob was obliged to take care of his family financially. So where the hell was all of his cash? Also during the late 1960's and early 70's when Giancana spent most of the time out of the country, he was still making millions but in 1974 he was almost broke?! And again, where did the all the money go?! And in the end most of his family members began writing books so they can made few more bucks. Also after the deaths of Nitto and Campagna, their families were not aware of the hidden locations of their fortunes. If you ask me, the only guys who made the real cash were the same guys who went semi-legit before the whole government heat came down, including guys such as Joe Fusco, Ross Prio, Tony Accardo, Jake Guzik, Paul Ricca, Eddie Vogel or Hyman Larner. These were only some of the guys who retired or died with millions and left something legit or employed their families so they can continue to live a rich and legit life styles at least few more decades.

The who made the most money argument is a tuff nut to crack. Like you said the most for themselves or the organization?? Some had bad habits and we're bad at handling their money, but might have set the money record for themselves and their organization, but didn't in the end have a pot to piss in. It's just like the game we have played in our life's. We all know people that look like they have money and then get in over their head. Some people like to live comfortable, but aren't filthy rich, but are consistent in work habits and always got money. Back to the mobsters most of their income can't be reported, so we can only guess. I would say Accardo would have made alot of money over the years.He might have even had some of Capone's money, just speculating lol someone had to end up with it. Legend has it Accardo made or was worth 700 million dollars. He had cash that was so old he was afraid to spend it.

@Frank, I think you're talking about the time they found $700,000 in Accardo's safe. I don't remember the whole story but I remember reading it somewhere and there were a lot of old bills. lol

There was also a report , I believe he had Jimmy Iendino launder his old money before he died. Iendino I believe laundered some of the Accardo money after he died too. Can't remember where I read it but it was not the 700,000 in the safe report, this was total worth being 700 million. Which I can believe since him and Ricca we're at the Top of the pyramid for a long time. But yes a good question is what happened to Al Capone's money. I'm sure some Outfit guys probably split it up. Maybe Capone's brothers got some or all of it.