What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

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Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by OlBlueEyesClub » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:27 am

Genovese was at his wedding, and I think there's a photo of the wedding which lists Genovese in the book, but it's really hard to see. And yeah, it's common knowledge nowadays that Valachi was with the Genovese, it's just interesting because of his testimony in front of the Senate and his own story. Like someone said earlier though, Valachi seem's to be one of those guys whom wasn't really aware of what he was getting into, it was during a war and all, so he was possibly recruited as just muscle, the guys he was around however, I suppose he naturally got close to, and those ended up being some pretty heavyweight guys. But even then, some of the guys he was recruited by were some heavyweight guys, so I guess one would have to ask what exactly they saw in Valachi. His story is one of the best there is around though, IMO. Despite what people may say of him, he's a good source into the old days.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by Raven » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:04 am

Yeah, I wonder if it is possible if Bonanno just didn't remember meeting him?

Valachi's "resume" was good. Wasn't Genovese actually in his wedding party? In the book Valachi Files he lists the names of some top guys that attended or sent money for his wedding. I can't remember exactly but I think he says Luciano and Gambino both.

Also he says Paul Gambino reached out for his advice after John Robilotto's murder. I wonder if Gambino was just trying to trick him into telling what he knew of Robilotto's murder.

I always wondered if he felt bad or regretted getting his Nephew Fiore Siano into the mafia. Another thing I find interesting is that he says both his Wife and Son abandoned him after he started cooperating. I wonder why that would cause them to dissociate with him? In his book he talks about his son and calls him "the kid, Donald", almost as if he is just an acquaintance and not his Son.

I think Valachi's story is really fascinating. He married a Boss' daughter and got shot in the head!

When I first saw this thread's title I thought it was kind of silly since it is common knowledge that Valachi was in the Genovese's (at least I never questioned it) but this thread turned out to be really interesting and has some good points.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by Pogo The Clown » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:07 am

Pogo The Clown wrote:I never met this guy before in my life. How can I be his "Godfather"?

For those who didn't get the reference this was what Joe Bonanno had to say about it in his book. :mrgreen:


Pogo

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by OlBlueEyesClub » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:05 am

If we're taking his smartness under consideration, I'd agree. But that's why I said if we're just going on resume alone. I think if the Mafia had a resume process like regular jobs do, he'd get a top spot.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by Raven » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:56 am

Respectfully I disagree on him being a good candidate for boss. I don't think he was that smart. If you read his testimony transcripts he is always saying he cant spell this or that, or remember anyone's name. I know that doesn't rule someone out for good leadership material, but he seemed like a pretty dim bulb. Then again, John Gotti became Boss, so who knows.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by OlBlueEyesClub » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:00 am

B. wrote:If you take away the whole becoming a government witness thing, Valachi has a pretty good resume:

- Schooled in prison by a Camorra leader.
- Gunman during the Castellammarese War, survived despite switching groups multiple times.
- Was assigned directly to the boss of bosses for a time.
- Continued to participate in many murders / murder conspiracies as a Genovese member, usually in a supervisory role.
- Was never murdered himself despite operating under leaders considered by many sources to be some of the most treacherous of the era (Strollo, Genovese). Also survived despite being caught on many occasions breaking rules, some of them severe (punching another member, selling heroin).
- As only a soldier, was allowed to sponsor at least 4 members into the family during the 1950s.
- Was married to the daughter of an early boss, who despite being murdered, was held in high regard by his successors.
- Had a personal friendship with the bosses of another family, Gagliano and Lucchese.
- Hid out in Buffalo shortly after being made where he was hosted and entertained by boss Magaddino.
- Had direct access to Vito Genovese.
- Competent business man / restaurant owner, involved in a variety of rackets.
- Not flashy, lives a low-key life in the suburbs.

Other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but it would be interesting what we might say of Valachi if he had never turned witness.

A good candidate for boss, if I'd say so. If we're just going on his resume alone.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by Pogo The Clown » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:52 pm

I never met this guy before in my life. How can I be his "Godfather"?


Pogo

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by B. » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:32 pm

If you take away the whole becoming a government witness thing, Valachi has a pretty good resume:

- Schooled in prison by a Camorra leader.
- Gunman during the Castellammarese War, survived despite switching groups multiple times.
- Was assigned directly to the boss of bosses for a time.
- Continued to participate in many murders / murder conspiracies as a Genovese member, usually in a supervisory role.
- Was never murdered himself despite operating under leaders considered by many sources to be some of the most treacherous of the era (Strollo, Genovese). Also survived despite being caught on many occasions breaking rules, some of them severe (punching another member, selling heroin).
- As only a soldier, was allowed to sponsor at least 4 members into the family during the 1950s.
- Was married to the daughter of an early boss, who despite being murdered, was held in high regard by his successors.
- Had a personal friendship with the bosses of another family, Gagliano and Lucchese.
- Hid out in Buffalo shortly after being made where he was hosted and entertained by boss Magaddino.
- Had direct access to Vito Genovese.
- Competent business man / restaurant owner, involved in a variety of rackets.
- Not flashy, lives a low-key life in the suburbs.

Other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but it would be interesting what we might say of Valachi if he had never turned witness.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by B. » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:13 pm

OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Yea but didn't Valachi say Bonanno was his assigned as his padrone or something like that, when he was inducted?
It was randomly assigned to Bonanno through a finger game where everyone holds up a number and they count around the circle until it lands on that number, and the person it lands on is the compare/Godfather. I've read about it in one or two other places, one being Rocco Scafidi's making ceremony in the 1950s in Philadelphia. They did the same finger game as in Valachi's ceremony but two decades later, and in Scafidi's case his compare was Domenico Pollina. So in these two ceremonies at least you had a sponsor, captain (if different from sponsor), and a randomly assigned compare who, in Philly's case, was someone the inducted member could go to for counsel/help.

Valachi never says anything else about his compare or any relationship to Bonanno after this ceremony, and Joe Bonanno denied ever knowing Valachi. Valachi also never explained what this role was supposed to be in the first place, if he even knew himself, but we can assume it was meant to be similar to the way it was in Philly. NYC seems to have abandoned this by the 1940s/50s inductions, but the fact that two families in different cities would do the same exact game over two decades apart to choose a random "compare" tells me it may have been an even older custom in the mafia.

But back to your point... I know what you're saying and it does seem significant that Valachi was made by the "Bonanno" boss Maranzano and that his compare was Joe Bonanno, but the Bonanno thing is too random to mean much. Despite all the talk about the mob being more traditional and having a deeper recruitment pool back then, Valachi's making ceremony sounds like a clusterfuck... you had members of two different families thrown together with the lines temporarily blurred due to the war, and most of the guys inducted were street thugs who weren't related to other members, didn't really know what they were getting involved with, and were little more than muscle needed for the war. Not exactly John Stanfa level recruits, but these guys also don't exactly match up with the bulk of the Lucchese and Bonanno membership at that point, who were clannish, had many layers of relationships, generally came from the same towns/regions as each other, etc.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by OlBlueEyesClub » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:43 am

Yea but didn't Valachi say Bonanno was his assigned as his padrone or something like that, when he was inducted?

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by B. » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:43 pm

Chris Christie wrote:Being that this thread was bumped back up, and we concluded that Valachi was a Lucchese associate made by Maranzano at the time when both Families were essentially merged temporarily, it begs the question what Family did Valachi really belong to? Technically, being made by Maranzano makes him a Bonanno despite coming up under the Luccheses. If A Gallo associate was made by Carlo Gambino during the time the Gallos temporarily went under Gambino he's technically a Gambino despite being a Gallo associate, no? But then the Luccheses, unlike the Gallos with the Gambinos, were on semi-equal footing with the Bonannos and after the war, it was announced some members would be going with Gagliano and others would stay with Maranzano.

Valachi, Lucchese associate, opted for Maranzano and then went with the Genoveses. I guess it's pointless to wonder what his mafia career may have been had he went with the Luccheses, had he not flipped in the 1962 the FBI would have picked someone else. Valachi won the contest given his longevity of 30+ years as a member.
I don't think Maranzano making him necessarily makes him a Bonanno, though. In Sicily it seems that the ceremony can be officiated by a leader from another family. Maybe Toto or someone can confirm with details, but I've read about that happening at least once or twice in the modern era, so it would make sense if the old Sicilians who came from Sicily to here might do that as well.

When Valachi was inducted he seemed to think he was being brought into a Cosa Nostra coalition that was a group in and of itself, but that doesn't mean he was a "member" of the coalition, only that he was a member of a group that was part of that coalition. From what he's said in his book and the Real Thing, the Luccheses recognized him as theirs from the start. It's a process that existed long before Valachi and still exists today, but in the chaos of the war it sounds like people forgot to fully explain it to him, or -- being Valachi and all -- he just didn't listen.

Valachi didn't fully understand who he was officially affiliated with which is why Lucchese was surprised when Valachi volunteered to stay with Maranzano and insisted on going to Maranzano to tell him Valachi had made a mistake. You also have to figure, as I think you said earlier, that Gagliano wasn't an official boss at the time of Valachi's induction and more likely "just" a faction leader. Maranzano, too, may not have been an official boss at that point either but I can't remember the "official" story on Schiro leaving and Maranzano inheriting his position formally/informally. It was a confusing time and I would guess some of the established mafiosi overlooked the fact that these new recruits were clueless about how the induction process and recruiting system actually worked.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by Angelo Santino » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:08 pm

Being that this thread was bumped back up, and we concluded that Valachi was a Lucchese associate made by Maranzano at the time when both Families were essentially merged temporarily, it begs the question what Family did Valachi really belong to? Technically, being made by Maranzano makes him a Bonanno despite coming up under the Luccheses. If A Gallo associate was made by Carlo Gambino during the time the Gallos temporarily went under Gambino he's technically a Gambino despite being a Gallo associate, no? But then the Luccheses, unlike the Gallos with the Gambinos, were on semi-equal footing with the Bonannos and after the war, it was announced some members would be going with Gagliano and others would stay with Maranzano.

Valachi, Lucchese associate, opted for Maranzano and then went with the Genoveses. I guess it's pointless to wonder what his mafia career may have been had he went with the Luccheses, had he not flipped in the 1962 the FBI would have picked someone else. Valachi won the contest given his longevity of 30+ years as a member.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by AG777 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Oh yeah, Damone uses Johnny D'Angelo instead of Di Carlo as to not disrespect his name

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by AG777 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:59 am

- Valachi says "they made a council of six" to "protect the soldier" and prevent soldiers from being killed just because the boss didn't like them. He says if a soldier did anything wrong, he would get a trial where he is judged by seven men. He says he doesn't remember who the seventh man would be, but the extra man was added to prevent there being a tie vote. He says "everyone was happy about the council." Not sure if he is referring to the Commission or something else -- this sounds like something a bit different.

This looks like an example of what I bet he meant to settle a beef. See info in photos. Six men. One of the six men is the advisor or council to represent Damone who is an associate (more like a civilian, he's a singer), against Di Carlo (Buffalo family) Di Carlo wanted Vic Damone dead for breaking off his engagement with Di Carlo's daughter.

Re: What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

by HairyKnuckles » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:27 pm

B. wrote:
Chris Christie wrote:Ok, ya buncha bitches, there were more than 6 crews. Hah-peeeee!??

Seriously, good arguments and yes, it appears there's evidence for more than 6. Perhaps like you guys said: Mass looked at the chart (compiled without Valachi) and concluded it was 6. I'll go with the evidence. As they say in Mid-World: thankee-sai - HK, B. Antiliar - for clearing that up and spending time bringing me up to speed.
Haha, well I don't think we've proven anything so you might still be right, you 6 crew believing son of a gun.

I looked at Pogo's succession lists to compare and some of the loose ends are explained there, but not all of them. One thing for sure is that they didn't have a lot of crews 1930s through the 1950s, but from where I'm standing it looks more like 9 or 10 possible crews opposed to 6, which is still relatively few crews for such a large family.

Pogo's list has Jerry Catena replacing Willie Moretti, then later on Boiardo taking over that crew and still later it was split between Boiardo, Gene Catena, and Gyp DeCarlo. I was under the impression that Moretti's crew was initially split between Boiardo and Catena, with Gene Catena replacing his brother upon becoming underboss, then DeCarlo later getting promoted to his own separate crew. Boiardo obviously was semi-immortal. If the Valachi chart is correct, John DeNoia was an earlier NJ captain at one point as well but I've never seen that elsewhere... with Moretti occasionally popping in as an acting administration member, I wonder if DeNoia was his acting captain which is why he appears on the list as a former captain. (the chart doesn't differentiate between acting/official and I believe Patty Eboli / Dom DeQuatro were both only acting captains but they appear on the list)

I'm hoping HK takes a look at some of this and weighs in as he knows a lot about the Genovese family circa 1950s/1960s and how some of the guys on the chart might be connected.
I was thinking the exact same thing. DeNoia was a power on the Newark docks and I believe was closely associated with Bobby Manna´s father, Willy Moretti and a possible early Genovese member by the name of Anthony Giantomasi aka "Joe Gent". It could very well be that they were all under Moretti. My take is that Moretti was the first Genovese crew leader and that his crew was split between Jerry Catena and DeCarlo after his murder. Boiardo seems to have been an independent gang leader untill he was made into the Genovese Family and headed his own crew. That´s been my impression but I have no documentation for this so I could be wrong. My knowledge is limited when it comes to the Genovese crews pre 1960. But I assume Gene Catena was upped by the time of Jerry´s elevaton to underboss.

I disagree with the notion that Angellina took over from Carfano. Angellina was based out of Bellmont in the Bronx. Did Carfano have interests in the Bronx? The thing is, almost all of the members in Angellina´s crew were based in the Bronx which makes Angellina taking over from Carfano less likely. Carfano seems to have been a Brooklyn guy mainly with interests also down in Florida. To me, it could be that John Biele was the one who inherited portions of Carfano´s interests in Florida, before he was demoted around 1963. An interesting aspect in all this is that Biele seems to have originally been a Bronx guy.

Frasca took over from Tommy Licata in the early 1950s. His crew was a merger of members based in the Lower East Side and members who had previously belonged to a smaller Brooklyn based crew. It´s possible that Licata originally broke off from Tommy Greco. The members of the two crews were very closely associated way into the 1970s.

Harry Lanza is another crew leader who pops up in the mid 1960s. I don´t know for how long he had been a captain but he had a grip on the Fulton Fish Market once his brother Joe "Socks" was forced out of there. Toddo Marino may have acted as his crew leader occasionally until he took it over after Harry Lanza´s retirement in the early/mid 1970s. After Marino´s death in 1979, the crew went to Tommy Contaldo.

Miranda´s crew was split five ways, like I said in an earlier posts.

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