What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

[AG777]

Oh yeah, Damone uses Johnny D'Angelo instead of Di Carlo as to not disrespect his name

[Angelo Santino]

Being that this thread was bumped back up, and we concluded that Valachi was a Lucchese associate made by Maranzano at the time when both Families were essentially merged temporarily, it begs the question what Family did Valachi really belong to? Technically, being made by Maranzano makes him a Bonanno despite coming up under the Luccheses. If A Gallo associate was made by Carlo Gambino during the time the Gallos temporarily went under Gambino he's technically a Gambino despite being a Gallo associate, no? But then the Luccheses, unlike the Gallos with the Gambinos, were on semi-equal footing with the Bonannos and after the war, it was announced some members would be going with Gagliano and others would stay with Maranzano.

Valachi, Lucchese associate, opted for Maranzano and then went with the Genoveses. I guess it's pointless to wonder what his mafia career may have been had he went with the Luccheses, had he not flipped in the 1962 the FBI would have picked someone else. Valachi won the contest given his longevity of 30+ years as a member.

[B.]

Being that this thread was bumped back up, and we concluded that Valachi was a Lucchese associate made by Maranzano at the time when both Families were essentially merged temporarily, it begs the question what Family did Valachi really belong to? Technically, being made by Maranzano makes him a Bonanno despite coming up under the Luccheses. If A Gallo associate was made by Carlo Gambino during the time the Gallos temporarily went under Gambino he's technically a Gambino despite being a Gallo associate, no? But then the Luccheses, unlike the Gallos with the Gambinos, were on semi-equal footing with the Bonannos and after the war, it was announced some members would be going with Gagliano and others would stay with Maranzano.

Valachi, Lucchese associate, opted for Maranzano and then went with the Genoveses. I guess it's pointless to wonder what his mafia career may have been had he went with the Luccheses, had he not flipped in the 1962 the FBI would have picked someone else. Valachi won the contest given his longevity of 30+ years as a member.

I don't think Maranzano making him necessarily makes him a Bonanno, though. In Sicily it seems that the ceremony can be officiated by a leader from another family. Maybe Toto or someone can confirm with details, but I've read about that happening at least once or twice in the modern era, so it would make sense if the old Sicilians who came from Sicily to here might do that as well.

When Valachi was inducted he seemed to think he was being brought into a Cosa Nostra coalition that was a group in and of itself, but that doesn't mean he was a "member" of the coalition, only that he was a member of a group that was part of that coalition. From what he's said in his book and the Real Thing, the Luccheses recognized him as theirs from the start. It's a process that existed long before Valachi and still exists today, but in the chaos of the war it sounds like people forgot to fully explain it to him, or -- being Valachi and all -- he just didn't listen.

Valachi didn't fully understand who he was officially affiliated with which is why Lucchese was surprised when Valachi volunteered to stay with Maranzano and insisted on going to Maranzano to tell him Valachi had made a mistake. You also have to figure, as I think you said earlier, that Gagliano wasn't an official boss at the time of Valachi's induction and more likely "just" a faction leader. Maranzano, too, may not have been an official boss at that point either but I can't remember the "official" story on Schiro leaving and Maranzano inheriting his position formally/informally. It was a confusing time and I would guess some of the established mafiosi overlooked the fact that these new recruits were clueless about how the induction process and recruiting system actually worked.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Yea but didn't Valachi say Bonanno was his assigned as his padrone or something like that, when he was inducted?

[B.]

Yea but didn't Valachi say Bonanno was his assigned as his padrone or something like that, when he was inducted?

It was randomly assigned to Bonanno through a finger game where everyone holds up a number and they count around the circle until it lands on that number, and the person it lands on is the compare/Godfather. I've read about it in one or two other places, one being Rocco Scafidi's making ceremony in the 1950s in Philadelphia. They did the same finger game as in Valachi's ceremony but two decades later, and in Scafidi's case his compare was Domenico Pollina. So in these two ceremonies at least you had a sponsor, captain (if different from sponsor), and a randomly assigned compare who, in Philly's case, was someone the inducted member could go to for counsel/help.

Valachi never says anything else about his compare or any relationship to Bonanno after this ceremony, and Joe Bonanno denied ever knowing Valachi. Valachi also never explained what this role was supposed to be in the first place, if he even knew himself, but we can assume it was meant to be similar to the way it was in Philly. NYC seems to have abandoned this by the 1940s/50s inductions, but the fact that two families in different cities would do the same exact game over two decades apart to choose a random "compare" tells me it may have been an even older custom in the mafia.

But back to your point... I know what you're saying and it does seem significant that Valachi was made by the "Bonanno" boss Maranzano and that his compare was Joe Bonanno, but the Bonanno thing is too random to mean much. Despite all the talk about the mob being more traditional and having a deeper recruitment pool back then, Valachi's making ceremony sounds like a clusterfuck... you had members of two different families thrown together with the lines temporarily blurred due to the war, and most of the guys inducted were street thugs who weren't related to other members, didn't really know what they were getting involved with, and were little more than muscle needed for the war. Not exactly John Stanfa level recruits, but these guys also don't exactly match up with the bulk of the Lucchese and Bonanno membership at that point, who were clannish, had many layers of relationships, generally came from the same towns/regions as each other, etc.

[B.]

If you take away the whole becoming a government witness thing, Valachi has a pretty good resume:

- Schooled in prison by a Camorra leader.
- Gunman during the Castellammarese War, survived despite switching groups multiple times.
- Was assigned directly to the boss of bosses for a time.
- Continued to participate in many murders / murder conspiracies as a Genovese member, usually in a supervisory role.
- Was never murdered himself despite operating under leaders considered by many sources to be some of the most treacherous of the era (Strollo, Genovese). Also survived despite being caught on many occasions breaking rules, some of them severe (punching another member, selling heroin).
- As only a soldier, was allowed to sponsor at least 4 members into the family during the 1950s.
- Was married to the daughter of an early boss, who despite being murdered, was held in high regard by his successors.
- Had a personal friendship with the bosses of another family, Gagliano and Lucchese.
- Hid out in Buffalo shortly after being made where he was hosted and entertained by boss Magaddino.
- Had direct access to Vito Genovese.
- Competent business man / restaurant owner, involved in a variety of rackets.
- Not flashy, lives a low-key life in the suburbs.

Other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but it would be interesting what we might say of Valachi if he had never turned witness.

[Pogo The Clown]

I never met this guy before in my life. How can I be his "Godfather"?


Pogo

[OlBlueEyesClub]

If you take away the whole becoming a government witness thing, Valachi has a pretty good resume:

- Schooled in prison by a Camorra leader.
- Gunman during the Castellammarese War, survived despite switching groups multiple times.
- Was assigned directly to the boss of bosses for a time.
- Continued to participate in many murders / murder conspiracies as a Genovese member, usually in a supervisory role.
- Was never murdered himself despite operating under leaders considered by many sources to be some of the most treacherous of the era (Strollo, Genovese). Also survived despite being caught on many occasions breaking rules, some of them severe (punching another member, selling heroin).
- As only a soldier, was allowed to sponsor at least 4 members into the family during the 1950s.
- Was married to the daughter of an early boss, who despite being murdered, was held in high regard by his successors.
- Had a personal friendship with the bosses of another family, Gagliano and Lucchese.
- Hid out in Buffalo shortly after being made where he was hosted and entertained by boss Magaddino.
- Had direct access to Vito Genovese.
- Competent business man / restaurant owner, involved in a variety of rackets.
- Not flashy, lives a low-key life in the suburbs.

Other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but it would be interesting what we might say of Valachi if he had never turned witness.

A good candidate for boss, if I'd say so. If we're just going on his resume alone.

[Raven]

Respectfully I disagree on him being a good candidate for boss. I don't think he was that smart. If you read his testimony transcripts he is always saying he cant spell this or that, or remember anyone's name. I know that doesn't rule someone out for good leadership material, but he seemed like a pretty dim bulb. Then again, John Gotti became Boss, so who knows.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

If we're taking his smartness under consideration, I'd agree. But that's why I said if we're just going on resume alone. I think if the Mafia had a resume process like regular jobs do, he'd get a top spot.

[Pogo The Clown]

I never met this guy before in my life. How can I be his "Godfather"?

For those who didn't get the reference this was what Joe Bonanno had to say about it in his book.


Pogo

[Raven]

Yeah, I wonder if it is possible if Bonanno just didn't remember meeting him?

Valachi's "resume" was good. Wasn't Genovese actually in his wedding party? In the book Valachi Files he lists the names of some top guys that attended or sent money for his wedding. I can't remember exactly but I think he says Luciano and Gambino both.

Also he says Paul Gambino reached out for his advice after John Robilotto's murder. I wonder if Gambino was just trying to trick him into telling what he knew of Robilotto's murder.

I always wondered if he felt bad or regretted getting his Nephew Fiore Siano into the mafia. Another thing I find interesting is that he says both his Wife and Son abandoned him after he started cooperating. I wonder why that would cause them to dissociate with him? In his book he talks about his son and calls him "the kid, Donald", almost as if he is just an acquaintance and not his Son.

I think Valachi's story is really fascinating. He married a Boss' daughter and got shot in the head!

When I first saw this thread's title I thought it was kind of silly since it is common knowledge that Valachi was in the Genovese's (at least I never questioned it) but this thread turned out to be really interesting and has some good points.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Genovese was at his wedding, and I think there's a photo of the wedding which lists Genovese in the book, but it's really hard to see. And yeah, it's common knowledge nowadays that Valachi was with the Genovese, it's just interesting because of his testimony in front of the Senate and his own story. Like someone said earlier though, Valachi seem's to be one of those guys whom wasn't really aware of what he was getting into, it was during a war and all, so he was possibly recruited as just muscle, the guys he was around however, I suppose he naturally got close to, and those ended up being some pretty heavyweight guys. But even then, some of the guys he was recruited by were some heavyweight guys, so I guess one would have to ask what exactly they saw in Valachi. His story is one of the best there is around though, IMO. Despite what people may say of him, he's a good source into the old days.