Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:52 pm
I've gone back and reviewed what you posted three times now and I still can't determine what exactly is supposed to be supporting the contention there is a present day mob family in Buffalo. At least directly. Most of it is insinuation at best. Even you leave a good portion of it open ended and in question rather than anything conclusive. Nobody is denying individuals may have made threats, engaged in witnesses tampering, etc. All things the Mafia has traditionally done. But 1 + 1 does not = 5.
That's because you ignore information that doesn't fit your tiny little threshold to consider. Yes nothing proves there is a Buffalo crime family... but when you weigh all the evidence it suggests the likelihood that the Buffalo mob exists it greater than it not existing.
Even in this once small document I shared the government has information that makes them believe the mafia is playing a role in these threats against witnesses, judges, and prosecutors. Why else do they bring up a whole section on the mafia and how it works to silence witnesses. If they didn't believe it was relevant, they wouldn't have put it in their motion.
Which mafia are they talking about? You are right they don't state that it is the Buffalo mob... But if one engages his or her critical thinking skills it has to be the Buffalo mob or another mafia family/group that worries them.
So I ask why would another mafia group be involved in protecting Grerace et. al.?
Because mafia members/associates are working together with Gerace either functionally in this drug/sex operation. Or Gerace et. al. has invited them to help for silence these witnesses for a price. They are not going to do this if it doesn't benefit them in some way.
I guess this could suggest Gerace could be a member or an associate of another family, but the feds identified him as a member or associate of the Buffalo family. So, that is not a good option.
Occam's razor in this case suggests the Buffalo mob is active and is working to silence witnesses or has engaged the services of another family to help them silence witnesses. If the mafia was not involved the government would not have brought up the mafioso or written about how the mafia worlds to silence witness.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:52 pm
Seriously, how the hell does one even comment on someone "meeting high ranking mafiosi while in BP custody" when we don't even know who they were? What exactly am I supposed to do with that question? I deal with the known facts and don't delve much info conjecture because it doesn't do much good.
You are right, it doesn't do much good for you. Translation you jettison anything that does't fit your understanding. I mean why would you deal with information that seems to contradict your opinion when you don't have to deal with it.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:52 pm
You'll notice that much of the government's case since the beginning, at least when it comes to proving a present day mob family in Buffalo, has been more smoke than fire. We've seen allegations of people with historic ties to the mob in the past, people who are blood relatives to the few remaining Buffalo members still living, and people that could best be said to have loose mob connections.
Well it is your opinion that it is more smoke than fire. And even if it is more smoke than fire... this has historically been the case with most mafia cases in Buffalo... Never a RICO according to the Buffalo News. So your line of reasoning is would suggest the Buffalo mob never existed. And if you say otherwise, then you are using other information to add it all together like you accuse me of doing with the Buffalo crime family today.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:52 pm
Isn't it interesting that the government has used the term "IOC" or "Italian Organized Crime?" When have we seen that before (other than in the general sense in OC reports) in indictments against a mob family? Could it be because drug dealers (who happen to be Italian) engaged in an organized crime activity don't automatically constitute an LCN family?
That could be a good question and decent argument if it wasn't for the other evidence that you ignore.
1. Masecchia is identified as a made member or associate.
2. Serio asked Masacchia how he could become a made man.
3. Masecchia introduced Serio to Butch Bifulco in Canada because Serio wanted the Buffalo mobs drug contacts there so he could control drug market with Masecchia in WNY.
4. Lou Salva indicated that Masecchia was a made man.
5. Joe Bella is identified as a made member or associate.
6. Joe Bella was not part of this case but a separate case that dealt with covid fraud and collections scams which the government indicated most if not all run these collections scams run under the preview of the Buffalo mob.
7. Gerace is identified as made man or associate of the Buffalo mob
8. Gerace has claimed to be a made man.
9. Anthony Gerace is serving time for drugs and had evidence of book making, sports gambling, and utilized the services of former boxer to collect debts.
10. When Bongiovanni's home was raided one of the first things LE told him to do was, "Tell us what you know about the mafia."
I could keep going but 10 is enough because your are just going to ignore this anyway.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:52 pm
From a prosecutorial standpoint, it makes sense to draw whatever connections or parallels to "the Mafia" you can but, since the start, it's been telling what they've said and what they haven't said.
Yes, Vilardo has limited what the prosecutors can and cannot say. They are only trying to prove Bongi believed he was protecting people in the mafia. Yes the indictment says IOC... so they did lower the standard by using that verbiage. You believe this is because the Buffalo mob doesn't exist. I believe it is because they don't have a member informant so they are using what they think they can prove verses what they know to be true.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:52 pm
At least in the Violi case, as much of an outlier as he is, you were dealing with an actual made guy who could be alleged to be part of the mob structure. Ahearn's and Cohen's statements on the issue at hand here were pretty direct and to the point. Has there been anything from the prosecution in these cases that have been as direct? Not that I recall.
You are right, but Ahearn was retired when he made those statements. Once can make the case that he didn't know. Cohen is a better argument for you. Here is the issue ... is succinct words are old (March of 2017) whereas the information I consider, but you don't, brings our understanding to today and reflects what the government and LE agencies are trying to prove today.
Now... why did I bring this Buffalo stuff to a KC thread... because you and Pogo did. My issue is not with your argument when it comes to other allegedly dead families... it has to do with using the Buffalo in that mix when the circumstances are completely different and reasonable people can disagree when it comes to this family. Buffalo does not prove your argument. Instead it muddies the waters in the argument you are making.
Additionally, I am of the firm belief that it is hurtful to the people of Buffalo to continue the Buffalo mob is dead narrative. That is exactly the narrative that the Buffalo mob worked to create and is doing their best to defend. It is the big reason Joe Todaro was so upset with Violi and why his uncles had to smooth things over for hime with Todaro as Burnstein reported.