Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

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Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by B. » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:42 pm

yatescj7781 wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 pm On the second subject, Bianco was made in the early 60s. So what did they do? ten years later they realize bianco transferred and they decided to try it? Did Allie Persico do it and everyone just said "Oh shucks" the Persico's slipped one in us when the books were closed? That's not how wiseguys worked. If the Colombo Family got a guy made then there would be a sitdown beforehand or afterword and compromises would be made. The Genovese,Gambino,Lucchese,and Bonanno Family aren't going to let the Colombos make a guy(even via transfer) and not have at least one of their top guys get their button.
Transfers were pretty common pre-1930s due to all of the guys moving around. Valachi claims that transfers were not only allowed after that, but mandatory if someone lived in the city of another family or 6+ months. I don't know what to think of that since it seems like a number of members lived in territory run by other families over the years. This may have been a rule Valachi heard early on (i.e. 1930s/40s) and it faded over time, especially with smaller families around the country getting weaker by the 1960s.

With Allie Persico, it seems the other NYC families would have had to allow it, which they must have as we know he was recognized as a member and met with high-ranking members of other families. It would have also been allowed by the Colombo leadership and the boss who made him (I know Bufalino has been mentioned but sure if that's been confirmed). You also have to figure that other families likely made guys similarly during other years when the books were closed.

By that time Carmine Persico was a major power in the family, seemingly with support from other families, and the Colombos were in yet another period of dangerous instability. I imagine the argument could have been made that by making Allie, the family was maintaining what little balance of power there was in the family. After Colombo's shooting, what was left of the Gallo crew would continue to create problems in the family, and there were at least three distinct factions forming in the rest of the family: one group was loyal to Joe Yacovelli and would push him as boss, another was loyal to Persico and supported DiBella, and then there was the "neutral" faction led by Franzese/Brancato.

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by yatescj7781 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 pm

My earlier post I said Amato, my mistake.what I meant was Vito Borelli. Sal Vitale said Gotti was involved in the hit in 1976. Was he wrong? Was Gotti not in jail at this point? The main reason the books were closed in all I have read was Carlo Gambino. Yet he was still alive in January of 76. I have read reports of Russo being acting capo in 75.

On the second subject, Bianco was made in the early 60s. So what did they do? ten years later they realize bianco transferred and they decided to try it? Did Allie Persico do it and everyone just said "Oh shucks" the Persico's slipped one in us when the books were closed? That's not how wiseguys worked. If the Colombo Family got a guy made then there would be a sitdown beforehand or afterword and compromises would be made. The Genovese,Gambino,Lucchese,and Bonanno Family aren't going to let the Colombos make a guy(even via transfer) and not have at least one of their top guys get their button.

Bufalino was closest to the Genovese. It only makes sense that the other 3 do the same. The Bonanno's were on the outs so maybe not them. But it is entirely plausible the Families made at least a few guys before 76

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by B. » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:05 pm

When someone is inducted, it is typically a busy period: a whirlwind of new business opportunities, introductions to other members, new information, conversations and meetings they previously wouldn't have had access to. It isn't surprising that some guys would forget. People have a hard enough time remembering their wedding anniversary, and they knew the date of that in advance, their wife reminds them every year, it's written on legal documents, etc. Yet people still forget their anniversary with all of that.

In a lot of cases, at least historically, a guy doesn't know the details of his making ceremony in advance. There are exceptions, but according to most informants and witnesses, a guy isn't told, "The ceremony is going to be on month/day/year." Many of them are given a general heads up a short time before the date, but unless there was another event in their lives or something big in the news at the time, they wouldn't have a reason to remember the specific date. The mob doesn't have "initiation anniversary parties" to remind them of the date every year and to some of them the date may not be important -- they were inducted and that's what matters to them. I have to think for a second sometimes to remember the exact year I graduated high school and I remember the month but no way in Hell can I remember the exact day... I don't care at all to remember graduating high school, but it was important to me that I graduated. Does that make sense?

On the subject of transfers, Alphonse Persico would have been made and transferred to the Colombos in 1971. Bianco was transferred back to the Patriarca family in early 1973. The informant mentioned in the other Bianco thread that other Colombo members were following Bianco's lead and requesting transfers around 1973 but were turned down and told "No more transfers." Would be interesting to know if shutting down transfers that year was specific to the Colombo and if it was temporary, or if it applied to other families and/or was a permanent rule.

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by SILENT PARTNERZ » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:16 pm

HairyKnuckles wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:41 am "He [Tony Buckaloo] took me to the El Cortile [Il Cortile] Reataurant on Mulberry Street where Buckaloo and I went downstairs to meet with Funzi Tieri..."

The place was a retaurant when Cafaro was made.

The likely year Franzese was made is 1977. One of the other inductees was Vito Guzzo Sr according to Franzese himself. Guzzo was in prison from October 1974 (at least) and released in first half of 1977. So he cannot have been made in 1975.

The books were closed from appr 1958 to Jan 1976 for the NY Families. Nobody was getting in. Making people was back in the day regulated and exceptions weren´t made for nobody. That would mean chaos if one family was allowed to make new members but the other ones not. The smaller Families recruited guys but only after the Commission´s approval. Alphonse Persico was made into Bufalino Family (one of the smaller Families) and transferred to the Colombos around 1972.
Why was Alphonse Persico made with Bufalino? Did he live in Scranton area or, did he know Russell Bufalino due to
the days RB spent in NYC every week? Thanks, SP

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by Pogo The Clown » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:26 am

HairyKnuckles wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:41 am The likely year Franzese was made is 1977. One of the other inductees was Vito Guzzo Sr according to Franzese himself. Guzzo was in prison from October 1974 (at least) and released in first half of 1977. So he cannot have been made in 1975.

Thanks. I had forgotten who it was that was in prison. Another thing that points to the ceremony being in 1977 was Franzese saying that he and some of the guy's that were made with him were put with Capo Andy Russo. Russo himself was not made until January/Febraury 1976 and not promoted to Capo until 1977 (maybe late 1976),


Pogo

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by HairyKnuckles » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:41 am

"He [Tony Buckaloo] took me to the El Cortile [Il Cortile] Reataurant on Mulberry Street where Buckaloo and I went downstairs to meet with Funzi Tieri..."

The place was a retaurant when Cafaro was made.

The likely year Franzese was made is 1977. One of the other inductees was Vito Guzzo Sr according to Franzese himself. Guzzo was in prison from October 1974 (at least) and released in first half of 1977. So he cannot have been made in 1975.

The books were closed from appr 1958 to Jan 1976 for the NY Families. Nobody was getting in. Making people was back in the day regulated and exceptions weren´t made for nobody. That would mean chaos if one family was allowed to make new members but the other ones not. The smaller Families recruited guys but only after the Commission´s approval. Alphonse Persico was made into Bufalino Family (one of the smaller Families) and transferred to the Colombos around 1972.

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by yatescj7781 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:49 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:28 am
yatescj7781 wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm I respect your opinion, but that is really not a source Pogo. What is the guy that Franzese claimed to be made with that was in jail. Castellano ordered Amato's death and Vitale claimed Gotti was there even though he was in jail in 75. Still no source Cafaro or Casso or Barone lied about being made in the early 70s. Or even Franzese was mistaken about Halloween 75 as opposed to 76

How is it not a source? It shows that Cafaro couldn't have been made in 1974 because the restaurant where he was made didn't exist in 1974. I don't think any of these guy's are lying they are just just mistaken about the year. They are human aftell all. People do have faulty memories and can be mistaken about dates, especially if they are recalling events 10+ years in the past. Case in point Joe Bonanno mistakinly saying that Frank Costello was shot in 1955 when it was 1957.


Pogo
Joe Bananas wasn't the one shot, I bet Costello could tell you the exact date because HE was the one shot. I never relied just on Franzese, but after I saw the file that said Shorty Spero was made in the fall of 75 and I looked at the date it basically backed up Franzese's claim that he was made Halloween 75.

The Cafaro situation.........He was giving his testimony in the late 80s. It had been the Il Cortile for over a decade by the time he told LE that he was made at that location. He said he was made at what is Il Cortile. that hardly discredits him. Il Cortile was a bedding store before being a restaurant right?

I'm trying to contact that cocksucker Franzese, I want to figure this thing out one way or another.

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by Pogo The Clown » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:28 am

yatescj7781 wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm I respect your opinion, but that is really not a source Pogo. What is the guy that Franzese claimed to be made with that was in jail. Castellano ordered Amato's death and Vitale claimed Gotti was there even though he was in jail in 75. Still no source Cafaro or Casso or Barone lied about being made in the early 70s. Or even Franzese was mistaken about Halloween 75 as opposed to 76

How is it not a source? It shows that Cafaro couldn't have been made in 1974 because the restaurant where he was made didn't exist in 1974. I don't think any of these guy's are lying they are just just mistaken about the year. They are human aftell all. People do have faulty memories and can be mistaken about dates, especially if they are recalling events 10+ years in the past. Case in point Joe Bonanno mistakinly saying that Frank Costello was shot in 1955 when it was 1957.


Pogo

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by UTC » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:27 pm

"Freddy Cozeteo" Common mistake. That was Gerrie Coetzee.

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by yatescj7781 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:23 am Here is the post in question showing how Cafaro could not have been made in 1974.

HairyKnuckles wrote: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:39 am
JD wrote:
HairyKnuckles wrote:
JD, you say that the books were officially reopened in 1976. But what about Vincent Cafaro´s statement that he was made in 1974 with Patsy Genese? The only explanation of this would be that Cafaro (just like Michael Franzese) was wrong about the year. What is your opinion on this?
In 1988 he said he was made in 1974, then at a trial in 1991 he supposedly puts the date at 1971. For other CWs a good way to narrow it down is when they reference events with fixed dates to compare it to (ie Salvatore Vitale confirming he was made after the Bonventre murder putting it in 1984). I'd like to read more info from Cafaro to see how well his recall is when it comes to dates.
It definitely looks like Cafaro was not made in 1974, but sometime after 1975. According to his own testimony:

"He [Tony Buckaloo] took me to the El Cortile [Il Cortile] Restaurant on Mulberry Street where Buckaloo and I went downstairs to meet with Funzi Tieri..."

I found out that Il Cortile was not in business until 1975 and that the location had previously been a bedding shop before it became a restaurant.

"Mr. Esposito, 47 years old, began his duties nine years after his uncle bought the Mulberry property in 1975. The family turned the bedding shop on the ground floor into a restaurant serving traditional Italian fare such as penne alla vodka, as well as its signature lobster ravioli dish."

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014 ... 3591998910
I respect your opinion, but that is really not a source Pogo. What is the guy that Franzese claimed to be made with that was in jail. Castellano ordered Amato's death and Vitale claimed Gotti was there even though he was in jail in 75. Still no source Cafaro or Casso or Barone lied about being made in the early 70s. Or even Franzese was mistaken about Halloween 75 as opposed to 76

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by Pogo The Clown » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:23 am

Here is the post in question showing how Cafaro could not have been made in 1974.

HairyKnuckles wrote: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:39 am
JD wrote:
HairyKnuckles wrote:
JD, you say that the books were officially reopened in 1976. But what about Vincent Cafaro´s statement that he was made in 1974 with Patsy Genese? The only explanation of this would be that Cafaro (just like Michael Franzese) was wrong about the year. What is your opinion on this?
In 1988 he said he was made in 1974, then at a trial in 1991 he supposedly puts the date at 1971. For other CWs a good way to narrow it down is when they reference events with fixed dates to compare it to (ie Salvatore Vitale confirming he was made after the Bonventre murder putting it in 1984). I'd like to read more info from Cafaro to see how well his recall is when it comes to dates.
It definitely looks like Cafaro was not made in 1974, but sometime after 1975. According to his own testimony:

"He [Tony Buckaloo] took me to the El Cortile [Il Cortile] Restaurant on Mulberry Street where Buckaloo and I went downstairs to meet with Funzi Tieri..."

I found out that Il Cortile was not in business until 1975 and that the location had previously been a bedding shop before it became a restaurant.

"Mr. Esposito, 47 years old, began his duties nine years after his uncle bought the Mulberry property in 1975. The family turned the bedding shop on the ground floor into a restaurant serving traditional Italian fare such as penne alla vodka, as well as its signature lobster ravioli dish."

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014 ... 3591998910

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by yatescj7781 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:11 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm I don't recall who it was but one of the guy's Franzese was made with (Vito Guzzo, Jimmy Angelino, Sal Micciota, Joe Peraino and John Minerva) was in prison in 1975. JD discovered the info as well as other things that showed this ceremony couldn't have happened before 1977.


Cafaro's 1974 claim has also been disproven. Someone (I think HK if memory serves) discovered that the restaurant Cafaro claimed he was made in (El Cortile on Mulberry Street) didn't open until 1976.


I think they just misremembered.


Pogo
What about Barones? Or Casso. Have never seen cafaros account disproven as he was proposing dinapoli to be made in late 70s. Colombos were proposing joe lane to be made in 73. It's a shame Scarpa files went dark from late 74 to 80. What's you guys position on Big Allie boy getting made in 72?

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by Pogo The Clown » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm

I don't recall who it was but one of the guy's Franzese was made with (Vito Guzzo, Jimmy Angelino, Sal Micciota, Joe Peraino and John Minerva) was in prison in 1975. JD discovered the info as well as other things that showed this ceremony couldn't have happened before 1977.


Cafaro's 1974 claim has also been disproven. Someone (I think HK if memory serves) discovered that the restaurant Cafaro claimed he was made in (El Cortile on Mulberry Street) didn't open until 1976.


I think they just misremembered.


Pogo

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by yatescj7781 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:43 pm

George Barone also claims early 70s. I've seen no account of anybody in the Bonanno's or Gambino's being made before 1976. I have seen at least 3 accounts of Colombo's(1972,1975), 2 accounts of Genovese(1974,early 70s) and 1 account of Lucchese (1974) that I can recall at this moment. Which coincides with Family Leadership at that time.

Re: Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

by yatescj7781 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:18 pm

dixiemafia wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:23 pm Bianco was made when the books were closed too
Vincent Cafaro alledgedly made by Genovese Family in 1974 at a restaurant, Casso claimed he was made in 1974 by the Lucchese.

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