THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:27 pm

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:33 pmAgain, its not bullshit just because some guy our in Utah says it is. If you choose to not believe it, that's fine. You can patter your fists and accuse others of be out of touch with reality but it was a possible link based on connections, I didnt say I have a source in the editors office that told me that Mazzara was definitely influencing articles. Youre confusing the two. One is a possibility, you get angry at posters when they correlate events to come up with a synopsis. Thats the only loony s hit going on here.

Im asking your specifically about accuracy of a 1998 article as well. You cant have it both ways. Either you believe what is published or you dont. You cant cherry pick to continue to claim your narrative. Its not logical or reasonable.

First, if you think it's reasonable to even entertain the notion there has been some coordinated effort between the Buffalo mob and local press to push a narrative of the mob being dead as a way to deflect attention, you're even more of a nut job than I thought and there really is no point in talking to you.

Second, what am I trying to have both ways? You keep mentioning Coppola's 1998 article. Without getting into all the specifics, the general point of the article was the family's weakened state at the time. And that was nearly 25 years ago. And Coppola has said the same thing all along, including in recent years. The other available evidence supports what he has said.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:33 pmAgain, its not bullshit just because some guy our in Utah says it is. If you choose to not believe it, that's fine. You can patter your fists and accuse others of be out of touch with reality but it was a possible link based on connections, I didnt say I have a source in the editors office that told me that Mazzara was definitely influencing articles. Youre confusing the two. One is a possibility, you get angry at posters when they correlate events to come up with a synopsis. Thats the only loony s hit going on here.

Im asking your specifically about accuracy of a 1998 article as well. You cant have it both ways. Either you believe what is published or you dont. You cant cherry pick to continue to claim your narrative. Its not logical or reasonable.

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:22 pm

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:46 amYou are a genius brother. Copy and paste skills like no other.

I'll talk cut and pasted facts over made up bullshit. But that's me.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:50 amSo is it you do believe journalists or you dont believe them when they write about the Mafia? Please pick one. You like it both ways when it fits your argument but then shy away from it when it negates your narrative. Is that a Mormon thing?

It depends on the journalist/article, on a case by case basis, and how what they say corresponds with the evidence overall.

What I'm saying to you is you alluding to the idea the Buffalo is dead has come, even in part, from journalists under Mob influence and pushing that narrative as a result, just shows how far removed from reality you are. It's the exact kind of loony bullshit I'm talking about.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:46 amYou are a genius brother. Copy and paste skills like no other.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:50 amSo is it you do believe journalists or you dont believe them when they write about the Mafia? Please pick one. You like it both ways when it fits your argument but then shy away from it when it negates your narrative. Is that a Mormon thing?

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:20 am

Timmoffat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:36 pmJust to be a smart ass I hit up one of those background check websites and found out some interesting figures relating to this section of the conversation.

6 confirmed living and made Patriarca members either currently live in Maine or have had a current part time residence in southern Maine in the last 2 years.

2 confirmed and living members live in New Hampshire, including one who lives 15 minutes from me incidentally and interestingly enough, Carmen Tortora, lives in Whitefield NH, which is 10 minutes from Vermont, an hour from the Canadian border, and just under 3 hours from Montreal……(he could be the super secret New England Liaison to the Rizzutos/Controni/Bonnanos in Canada……not to mention……wait for it…….the main Patriarca ambassador to the Arm in Buffalo.

You just summed up the problem rather well. Assuming you're telling the truth and a handful of Patriarca members have residences in other parts of New England, it's more likely that tells us they have simply moved away from the family's traditional bases and are not active anymore. The general decline in membership, activity, and their footprint in the region would certainly lead one to that conclusion. Not imagining improbable connections to a non-existent family in Buffalo or Bonannos in Montreal (as if there were any).

Just wait. After the flood of fawning PMs I received for going head to head with you I’ve developed a following and this info getting dropped is sure to lead to a 100 page thread at Gangster BB.

The blind leading the blind?

Honestly Wiseguy Most guys on the board have a huge amount of respect for you and all myself and a few others were trying to accomplish with you and pogo was simply attempting to get our points across that as individuals that are often directly connected and if not maybe 1 or 2 degrees removed from members of our real life Broader communities and local underworlds that you believe you know better then us, a large percentage of the community at the blackhand club is afraid to even offer an opinion or engage in healthy debate. Also, I am of the inclination that as someone on the outside looking in when it comes to the so called underworld or criminal lifestyle, it is almost impossible for you to recognize the banality that the average career criminal IE member/associate of LCN or similar organization views/experiences their life with. The difference between you and many of us is that you cannot grasp the subjects of discussion past a one dimensional paradigm. Your empathetic point of reference is a gangland news article or Goodfellas or Underboss (Maas not Lehr). It is at best a fantasy to you, leading you to perceive that it couldn’t be reality for any of the rest of us, including the gangsters that you study.

I'd perhaps take those you describe above more seriously if they had a better track record. But in my 15+ years on these forums, those claiming inside knowledge courtesy of their zipcode are legion. And, far more often than not, their "hot takes" and "fresh street talk" hasn't lined of with reality. That's not my fault. Simply the result of posters misrepresenting themselves and exaggerating what they really know.

This isn’t about the status of the New England Mob.

It's not? That's what it certainly started out as.

It’s about your treatment of other board participants, including many who not only like and respect you and value your knowledge, but maybe even look up to you and the unwavering qualities of leadership you show.

Can’t we all just get along?

Believe it or not, I don't come here to make enemies. I don't necessarily come here to make friends either. My main priority is getting as clear a picture as possible of organized crime, past and present. I'm all for "getting along," but not if it means indulging in nonsense.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:03 am
Sierra Nevada Mountains...lol...if you need to know about hiking Wiseguy is your guide. And anything related to OC you can just read an article he provides detailing every single piece of information that exists today for any family. That guy is in absolute genius when it comes to copying and pasting.

Shouldn't you be in another thread alleging the Buffalo Mob has created stories of its demise through influence of the local press?

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:20 am

Timmoffat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:36 pmJust to be a smart ass I hit up one of those background check websites and found out some interesting figures relating to this section of the conversation.

6 confirmed living and made Patriarca members either currently live in Maine or have had a current part time residence in southern Maine in the last 2 years.

2 confirmed and living members live in New Hampshire, including one who lives 15 minutes from me incidentally and interestingly enough, Carmen Tortora, lives in Whitefield NH, which is 10 minutes from Vermont, an hour from the Canadian border, and just under 3 hours from Montreal……(he could be the super secret New England Liaison to the Rizzutos/Controni/Bonnanos in Canada……not to mention……wait for it…….the main Patriarca ambassador to the Arm in Buffalo.

You just summed up the problem rather well. Assuming you're telling the truth and a handful of Patriarca members have residences in other parts of New England, it's more likely that tells us they have simply moved away from the family's traditional bases and are not active anymore. The general decline in membership, activity, and their footprint in the region would certainly lead one to that conclusion. Not imagining improbable connections to a non-existent family in Buffalo or Bonannos in Montreal (as if there were any).

Just wait. After the flood of fawning PMs I received for going head to head with you I’ve developed a following and this info getting dropped is sure to lead to a 100 page thread at Gangster BB.

The blind leading the blind?

Honestly Wiseguy Most guys on the board have a huge amount of respect for you and all myself and a few others were trying to accomplish with you and pogo was simply attempting to get our points across that as individuals that are often directly connected and if not maybe 1 or 2 degrees removed from members of our real life Broader communities and local underworlds that you believe you know better then us, a large percentage of the community at the blackhand club is afraid to even offer an opinion or engage in healthy debate. Also, I am of the inclination that as someone on the outside looking in when it comes to the so called underworld or criminal lifestyle, it is almost impossible for you to recognize the banality that the average career criminal IE member/associate of LCN or similar organization views/experiences their life with. The difference between you and many of us is that you cannot grasp the subjects of discussion past a one dimensional paradigm. Your empathetic point of reference is a gangland news article or Goodfellas or Underboss (Maas not Lehr). It is at best a fantasy to you, leading you to perceive that it couldn’t be reality for any of the rest of us, including the gangsters that you study.

I'd perhaps take those you describe above more seriously if they had a better track record. But in my 15+ years on these forums, those claiming inside knowledge courtesy of their zipcode are legion. And, far more often than not, their "hot takes" and "fresh street talk" hasn't lined of with reality. That's not my fault. Simply the result of posters misrepresenting themselves and exaggerating what they really know.

This isn’t about the status of the New England Mob.

It's not? That's what it certainly started out as.

It’s about your treatment of other board participants, including many who not only like and respect you and value your knowledge, but maybe even look up to you and the unwavering qualities of leadership you show.

Can’t we all just get along?

Believe it or not, I don't come here to make enemies. I don't necessarily come here to make friends either. My main priority is getting as clear a picture as possible of organized crime, past and present. I'm all for "getting along," but not if it means indulging in nonsense.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:03 am
Sierra Nevada Mountains...lol...if you need to know about hiking Wiseguy is your guide. And anything related to OC you can just read an article he provides detailing every single piece of information that exists today for any family. That guy is in absolute genius when it comes to copying and pasting.

Shouldn't you be in another thread alleging the Buffalo Mob has created stories of its demise through influence of the local press?

Timmoffat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:36 pmJust to be a smart ass I hit up one of those background check websites and found out some interesting figures relating to this section of the conversation.

6 confirmed living and made Patriarca members either currently live in Maine or have had a current part time residence in southern Maine in the last 2 years.

2 confirmed and living members live in New Hampshire, including one who lives 15 minutes from me incidentally and interestingly enough, Carmen Tortora, lives in Whitefield NH, which is 10 minutes from Vermont, an hour from the Canadian border, and just under 3 hours from Montreal……(he could be the super secret New England Liaison to the Rizzutos/Controni/Bonnanos in Canada……not to mention……wait for it…….the main Patriarca ambassador to the Arm in Buffalo.

Just wait. After the flood of fawning PMs I received for going head to head with you I’ve developed a following and this info getting dropped is sure to lead to a 100 page thread at Gangster BB.

Honestly Wiseguy Most guys on the board have a huge amount of respect for you and all myself and a few others were trying to accomplish with you and pogo was simply attempting to get our points across that as individuals that are often directly connected and if not maybe 1 or 2 degrees removed from members of our real life Broader communities and local underworlds that you believe you know better then us, a large percentage of the community at the blackhand club is afraid to even offer an opinion or engage in healthy debate. Also, I am of the inclination that as someone on the outside looking in when it comes to the so called underworld or criminal lifestyle, it is almost impossible for you to recognize the banality that the average career criminal IE member/associate of LCN or similar organization views/experiences their life with. The difference between you and many of us is that you cannot grasp the subjects of discussion past a one dimensional paradigm. Your empathetic point of reference is a gangland news article or Goodfellas or Underboss (Maas not Lehr). It is at best a fantasy to you, leading you to perceive that it couldn’t be reality for any of the rest of us, including the gangsters that you study.

This isn’t about the status of the New England Mob.

It’s about your treatment of other board participants, including many who not only like and respect you and value your knowledge, but maybe even look up to you and the unwavering qualities of leadership you show.

Can’t we all just get along?

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:03 am
Sierra Nevada Mountains...lol...if you need to know about hiking Wiseguy is your guide. And anything related to OC you can just read an article he provides detailing every single piece of information that exists today for any family. That guy is in absolute genius when it comes to copying and pasting.

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:57 am That is a lucid, well thought out and intelligent post. I’m sure while sitting on his mafia throne high up in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains wiseguy will yell OVERRULED!


Was in the bagel store earlier Nicky dragonetti (Gambino) is a few people ahead of me and Sal Canistraci (Colombo) is right behind me. I bullshit with Sal a little he’s a good guy but not Nicky he’s a jerkoff!

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:57 am That is a lucid, well thought out and intelligent post. I’m sure while sitting on his mafia throne high up in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains wiseguy will yell OVERRULED!

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:11 am

Timmoffat wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:58 pmAll due respect, but I live here.

So what? How does living in a given area give you special insight to the inner workings of a secret criminal organization you're not a part of?

Like I’m starting to form the opinion you live in Utah or Montana or something and in terms of actually living in proximity to the real people in the towns you just read about it, there’s absolutely no way you can relate.

Ah, the geography card. Like old times. I do live in Utah. But when it comes to this issue - the current state of the New England LCN - I could live in Egypt and it wouldn't make any difference. More sources are available to anyone, wherever they may be, than by benefit of simply living in an area. I don't need to live in Providence or Boston to see the decline in membership, indictments, etc.

I’m not talking shit, I’m just saying these guys are real people which in many cases I know victims, family members, the cops who really chase them. My Lawyer even has represented some of them. I’ve literally met known members and associates that have been listed on here: it maybe a concept for you, but for some of us it really is reality.

Richard Gambale maintains a residence in York Maine when not in Florida. You can go on a people finder website and see for yourself.

Billy Angelesco lives in Saco, check out the news stories on the last arrest

There’s another dude in Portland that has never popped up on these lists but the street carries as a made guy (apparently) I’m just not going there. If you look hard enough in the last 20 years of justice department press releases and pore
Over lists of known associates I know you can figure it out.

Notwithstanding that’s two. I have successfully defended myself. I win.

If that's the case, what that tells me is these guys are basically inactive. It's not a case of individual members, or the family in general, setting up an outpost in Maine.

Timmoffat wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:30 pmBoth of you are more then welcome to fly into Logan Airport and check out the scene.

I could move there for the rest of my life and it wouldn't give me any greater insight.

Like literally both of you guys are geniuses and legit factotums/encyclopedias on LCN. I will never take that away from and I can’t, but I’ve noticed every time you guys are threatened with the unknown or the undeniable realization that maybe just maybe guys like Cavita, Bobby Batts, Scott, myself might actually have a greater grasp on LCN in the present in our own home metro areas then you do wherever you live and in whatever subculture of society you inhabit. I have never seen any personal admissions from you guys, and the sheer negativity on top of the defensive tone you take with
Anyone who brings it up, I am now convinced you are both not only so far removed from reality, which is ironic because you accuse all of us of being delusional, despite some of us literally living in the same neighborhoods as these guys and you living literally in Idaho or Utah and once again I will be the first to say, you both are basically scholars and historians on this stuff, but it’s
Time
To
Stop picking everyone else’s opinions or personal life experiences apart, and time to start getting out

To these LCN stronghold cities and sell some
Heroin or do some bookmaking and Loansharking and running underground poker games and buy a garbage truck or run a little extortion so some of these guys you make charts of actually show up and you actually experience something you are so obsessed with to the point you demean guys who follow this stuff as a hobbie for having a different opinion then you

BobbyBatts? The guy who says there are still 15 (or so) members in Kansas City (when there were only 20 members 30 years ago)? He lives in the area, and I find it believable he may know some people, but I've never seen how that equates to him having an inside breakdown of who's burned a saint. But that's me.

Scott? Do we really need to go there?

I'm not trying to be negative or pick on anyone but this issue - people making exaggerated claims about a family and having nothing to support it but their address and anecdotes - is as old as the hills.

Timmoffat wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:37 pm Like Pogo you are a real smart guy, but NYempire is right. You are avoiding the fact that a lot of us have committed crime our whole lives and have special insight into our regional underworld. Some of us might have gone to school with made guys or kids of made guys. Some of us literally wave to made guys on our way to the mailbox. This isn’t just a concept far removed from Nebraska. It is our real lives and real friends and Neighbors

NewYorkEmpire? They guy who insists there is still a functioning family with 30+ members in Buffalo? I'm not sure he's been right about anything since he started posting on this forum.

Ozgoz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:53 pm

Lomartella13 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:40 pm Both Pogo and Wiseguy are phenomenal contributors to this community, and they always do great research before posting. I thoroughly enjoy reading both your work. However, both of you are beginning to act like jerks. Just because you are some of the best contributors here doesn’t mean that you know everything. Is LCN as a whole currently weaker? Yes. Is the New England family shrinking in membership compared to years past? Yes. But do the two of you know everything there is to know about the Present day New England family? Not at all.

I’ll never take someone’s word as concrete truth just because they live there, but if they are Italian and have dabbled in crime in their past within that city then they might know something you don’t. For example, I am born and raised in Rochester and I know a made member from the past who you did not mark on that list in this thread. So maybe you don’t know everything, okay?

I think you’re missing the point.

Anyone could write what you just wrote. Unless you have some proof or validity to what you just said, it means nothing and you can’t expect to be taken seriously.

There is no way around this.