THE BLACK HAND FORUM

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:04 am

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:34 am

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:12 pm The boss is the boss is the boss sounds great when you’re quoting Neil Dellacroce but if the boss isn’t doing his job why is he there aside from an outdated rule? It’s ancient logic and overall hurts operations and while I hear what your saying regarding the boss not being removed forcibly unless under extreme circumstances I’d argue Vic’s mismanagement of the Family through the 80’s and 90’s was extreme enough to warrant him being demoted.

1. This whole thing is based on 'outdated rules'. Note the second word there.
2. Demoted? This isnt a democracy. I used the cliche 'the boss is the boss' because its a cliche sure, but its also the truth. You dont vote the boss out. Look at Cammarano. He 'voted' the boss out. And found his ass shelved 12 months later. You want the boss out and he doesnt agree? one of you is getting clipped and 9 times out of ten its going to be you.

I agree. You dont vote out a boss, you wack out a boss. What happens if he refuses, ala Joe Bonnano?

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:34 am

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:12 pm The boss is the boss is the boss sounds great when you’re quoting Neil Dellacroce but if the boss isn’t doing his job why is he there aside from an outdated rule? It’s ancient logic and overall hurts operations and while I hear what your saying regarding the boss not being removed forcibly unless under extreme circumstances I’d argue Vic’s mismanagement of the Family through the 80’s and 90’s was extreme enough to warrant him being demoted.

1. This whole thing is based on 'outdated rules'. Note the second word there.
2. Demoted? This isnt a democracy. I used the cliche 'the boss is the boss' because its a cliche sure, but its also the truth. You dont vote the boss out. Look at Cammarano. He 'voted' the boss out. And found his ass shelved 12 months later. You want the boss out and he doesnt agree? one of you is getting clipped and 9 times out of ten its going to be you.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:26 am They did it to Scarfo...... its still baffling Corallo abdicated while Amuso didnt.. like... What's the protocol?

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:38 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:12 pm The boss is the boss is the boss sounds great when you’re quoting Neil Dellacroce but if the boss isn’t doing his job why is he there aside from an outdated rule? It’s ancient logic and overall hurts operations and while I hear what your saying regarding the boss not being removed forcibly unless under extreme circumstances I’d argue Vic’s mismanagement of the Family through the 80’s and 90’s was extreme enough to warrant him being demoted.

1. This whole thing is based on 'outdated rules'. Note the second word there.
2. Demoted? This isnt a democracy. I used the cliche 'the boss is the boss' because its a cliche sure, but its also the truth. You dont vote the boss out. Look at Cammarano. He 'voted' the boss out. And found his ass shelved 12 months later. You want the boss out and he doesnt agree? one of you is getting clipped and 9 times out of ten its going to be you.

You’re consistent with your boss is the boss and them’s the rules logic but I don’t think you’re understanding the concept of my post which is if a boss isn’t capable of doing his job should he be removed even if there’s an outdated rule that doesn’t really apply in 2021? I’m not sure why my use of the word demoted caused you to assume I viewed the mob as a democracy but to clarify I was describing removing an imprisoned for life boss from his higher position to a lower one, more than likely soldier. I agree there would be a shooting war if an Orena style take over was attempted but again I wasn’t referring to that, I was discussing the Lucchese’s taking Vic down unanimously as opposed to the 50/50 split the Columbo’s had.


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SonnyBlackstein wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:38 pm I was discussing the Lucchese’s taking Vic down unanimously as opposed to the 50/50 split the Columbo’s had.

Because youre viewing this as a democratic corporation where the boss has to stand in front of shareholders every year for a performance review.

Bosses appoint Capo's who are loyal to them. It would take something extraordinary to have a boss 'demoted'.
Again, I refer you to Cammarano, and I refer you to Vic Orena.

Both Camarano and Orena had 90% of the Capos on their sides. And the Commission still voted to keep Carmine in and Mancuso was still able to shelve Cammarano and several Captains.

There is no 'demotion', there is only revolt.

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:38 pm I was discussing the Lucchese’s taking Vic down unanimously as opposed to the 50/50 split the Columbo’s had.

Rocco wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:24 am I recently asked John Penissi about Vic Amuso’s leadership on a blog he was doing a Q and A on, inquiring why the Lucchese Family didn’t pressure Amuso to step down as official boss considering his track record. (Inability to control Casso, unnecessary murders, multiple informants connected to him and being imprisoned for life to name a few.)

While I was aware of the rule a boss can hold his spot no matter what Penissi reiterated it and said they “respected Vic as boss because of what he’d done to get that spot.” (Paraphrasing as I couldn’t find the blog, and thanks to Mr. Penissi for answering.)

Historically imprisoned for life bosses don’t work and the rule a boss doesn’t need to step down seems detrimental to the modern mob. I understand the concept of keeping someone “official” to be a lightening rod for law enforcement but why take direct orders from a guy who’s never going to see the street again and who’s decisions as boss have led to catastrophe? (Amuso, Persico and Gotti seem the best examples.)

Would love to hear thoughts.


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An official boss who is doing life in prison really isn't a lightening rod. FBI still goes after the acting boss or ruling panel just as if they were official boss themselves. So Amuso being Official boss did not take the heat of Madonna , Crea or DiNapoli one bit. THey were still targeted and still taken down by LE.

Extortion wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:06 pm

Frank wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:33 pm

Frank wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:49 am

Wiseguy wrote:For better or worse, it seems Amuso has always carried respect in the family. And in all the cases above (Amuso, Persico, Gotti), there were still plenty of people on the street that saw the imprisoned boss retaining power as benefiting them.

Who were those people that would benefit? I understand how immediately following their arrests there’d be people wanting them to remain official for political/financial reasons but Persico fought a war that crippled the Family and Amuso was rearranging the admin as early as last year without any financial contributions to the Lucchese’s for decades. At what point would you say they’re official but we don’t take orders from a guy locked up forever that’s making bad calls? In Gotti’s case I see no benefits to him remaining official boss for the Gambino’s outside of being a lightening rod, especially with his choice of acting bosses. Thanks again for contributing!


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My guess would be that every case is different. I would think how much clout on the outside certain bosses had. How members view LCN. Is it respect for not ratting? I think the lightning rod theory is not at all a major reason at all.

You don’t think it’s a good idea to retain a high profile boss to hide the real bosses?


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Im not sure it works. Underbosses, acting bosses, Capos are busted still. The 2 acting bosses for Pete Gotti where busted. Also 2 panel members It might work for a little while. In alot of instances it didnt.

You make a good point with the Gotti’s in that both Junior and Peter were busted as well as the other figure heads and the same can be said for Persico. The Gotti’s and Persico’s seem like the biggest cancers leadership wise.


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Yeah no shit but would you really want to give up position of boss I wanna organize crime family if you were in prison for life? No. By the time these bosses are in prison for life they’ve already seen the life start to decline rapidly or maybe they realized it was all bullshit but they’re all greedy mostly in after themselves so why wouldn’t they hold onto the sheet as boss? This is a crime family were talking about not like a country the days of Don Carlo are gone. Just get over it. People want this godfather shit so bad. It aint like that anymore..hasnt been for decades.

SonnyBlackstein wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:12 pm The boss is the boss is the boss sounds great when you’re quoting Neil Dellacroce but if the boss isn’t doing his job why is he there aside from an outdated rule? It’s ancient logic and overall hurts operations and while I hear what your saying regarding the boss not being removed forcibly unless under extreme circumstances I’d argue Vic’s mismanagement of the Family through the 80’s and 90’s was extreme enough to warrant him being demoted.

1. This whole thing is based on 'outdated rules'. Note the second word there.
2. Demoted? This isnt a democracy. I used the cliche 'the boss is the boss' because its a cliche sure, but its also the truth. You dont vote the boss out. Look at Cammarano. He 'voted' the boss out. And found his ass shelved 12 months later. You want the boss out and he doesnt agree? one of you is getting clipped and 9 times out of ten its going to be you.

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:24 am I recently asked John Penissi about Vic Amuso’s leadership on a blog he was doing a Q and A on, inquiring why the Lucchese Family didn’t pressure Amuso to step down as official boss considering his track record. (Inability to control Casso, unnecessary murders, multiple informants connected to him and being imprisoned for life to name a few.)

While I was aware of the rule a boss can hold his spot no matter what Penissi reiterated it and said they “respected Vic as boss because of what he’d done to get that spot.” (Paraphrasing as I couldn’t find the blog, and thanks to Mr. Penissi for answering.)

Historically imprisoned for life bosses don’t work and the rule a boss doesn’t need to step down seems detrimental to the modern mob. I understand the concept of keeping someone “official” to be a lightening rod for law enforcement but why take direct orders from a guy who’s never going to see the street again and who’s decisions as boss have led to catastrophe? (Amuso, Persico and Gotti seem the best examples.)

Would love to hear thoughts.


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Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:06 pm

Frank wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:33 pm

Frank wrote:

Arnold06 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:49 am

Wiseguy wrote:For better or worse, it seems Amuso has always carried respect in the family. And in all the cases above (Amuso, Persico, Gotti), there were still plenty of people on the street that saw the imprisoned boss retaining power as benefiting them.

Who were those people that would benefit? I understand how immediately following their arrests there’d be people wanting them to remain official for political/financial reasons but Persico fought a war that crippled the Family and Amuso was rearranging the admin as early as last year without any financial contributions to the Lucchese’s for decades. At what point would you say they’re official but we don’t take orders from a guy locked up forever that’s making bad calls? In Gotti’s case I see no benefits to him remaining official boss for the Gambino’s outside of being a lightening rod, especially with his choice of acting bosses. Thanks again for contributing!


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My guess would be that every case is different. I would think how much clout on the outside certain bosses had. How members view LCN. Is it respect for not ratting? I think the lightning rod theory is not at all a major reason at all.

You don’t think it’s a good idea to retain a high profile boss to hide the real bosses?


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Im not sure it works. Underbosses, acting bosses, Capos are busted still. The 2 acting bosses for Pete Gotti where busted. Also 2 panel members It might work for a little while. In alot of instances it didnt.

You make a good point with the Gotti’s in that both Junior and Peter were busted as well as the other figure heads and the same can be said for Persico. The Gotti’s and Persico’s seem like the biggest cancers leadership wise.


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