THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:31 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:23 pm

Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:59 pm

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Spot on analysis. In addition, "somebody" had to run Elmwood Park when Cerone & Messino were in Jail & Gagliano had died. There's no question that it was DiFronzo. The only reason DiFronzo & Carlisi "seemed" possibly a little less important than Lombardo or Pilotto or Solano was because they were a little over shadowed by Cerone & Auippa since those two Crews were the power bases of Cerone & Auippa & when push came to shove, those two represented them. However, that being said, look who became the #1 & #2 in the mid 80's. It was none other than Carlisi & DiFronzo.

The "original" disagreement in this thread was when that other poster said that Lombardo was "way above DiFronzo" before he went to Jail in the mid 80's". Completely disagree with that exaggerated statement 100%. Lombardo & DiFronzo were on a very complimentary horizontal level in the mid 80's. Lombardo a little more because of the Teamsters & DiFronzo a little more because he was the eventual #2 & a great earner. Pretty even.

I’m still waiting on your official reports that states Difronzo became a capo in 1970 and that he was close to Lombardo. I mean your all about official FBI reports so I would love to see them.

Lombardo and Difronzo were indicted for running a loansharking ring together in 1961, a charge which they both beat by beating the shit out of a witness. There is literally mug shots of them side by side in the paper. Google it. Pretty sure they were fairly close early on.

They both grew up in the Grand Ave Patch in the same age cohort. As a teen DiFronzo lived on the same block as Jimmy Legs D'Antonio (Erie & Wolcott) who was close with Lombardo since they were kids, so these guys all knew each other from way back.

This reminds me, I have a pic of DiFronzo from the Wells HS yearbook. I'll post it sometime.

I’m Not claiming they didn’t know each other but saying they were very close is another thing. Now D’Antonio and Lombardo were close. They were always around each other. DiFronzo I would like to know where the source was bc I heard the opposite

Villain wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:48 am We are talking about the Outfit over here, a Mafia organization only interested in cash so it didnt mean much if one individual was long time friends with another....everyone was in close connection since thats the point of the Mob, for example Chicago Heights guys constantly cooperated and were in close connection with members from the south, west and north factions, and vice versa...they were all some type of friends, like for example Alex used to fool around with both Ricca and Accardo besides being much younger than the two and also having a lower position etc. but by the end of the day, if Ricca told Alex to kill his long time friend Ferraro....we all know the answer to that....everybody were/are "friends" in the Mob....the close connection between DiFtonzo and Lombardo is just another evidence regarding the close cooperation between the EP and Grand Av crews, nothing more than that

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:31 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:23 pm

Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:59 pm

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Spot on analysis. In addition, "somebody" had to run Elmwood Park when Cerone & Messino were in Jail & Gagliano had died. There's no question that it was DiFronzo. The only reason DiFronzo & Carlisi "seemed" possibly a little less important than Lombardo or Pilotto or Solano was because they were a little over shadowed by Cerone & Auippa since those two Crews were the power bases of Cerone & Auippa & when push came to shove, those two represented them. However, that being said, look who became the #1 & #2 in the mid 80's. It was none other than Carlisi & DiFronzo.

The "original" disagreement in this thread was when that other poster said that Lombardo was "way above DiFronzo" before he went to Jail in the mid 80's". Completely disagree with that exaggerated statement 100%. Lombardo & DiFronzo were on a very complimentary horizontal level in the mid 80's. Lombardo a little more because of the Teamsters & DiFronzo a little more because he was the eventual #2 & a great earner. Pretty even.

I’m still waiting on your official reports that states Difronzo became a capo in 1970 and that he was close to Lombardo. I mean your all about official FBI reports so I would love to see them.

Lombardo and Difronzo were indicted for running a loansharking ring together in 1961, a charge which they both beat by beating the shit out of a witness. There is literally mug shots of them side by side in the paper. Google it. Pretty sure they were fairly close early on.

They both grew up in the Grand Ave Patch in the same age cohort. As a teen DiFronzo lived on the same block as Jimmy Legs D'Antonio (Erie & Wolcott) who was close with Lombardo since they were kids, so these guys all knew each other from way back.

This reminds me, I have a pic of DiFronzo from the Wells HS yearbook. I'll post it sometime.

I’m Not claiming they didn’t know each other but saying they were very close is another thing. Now D’Antonio and Lombardo were close. They were always around each other. DiFronzo I would like to know where the source was bc I heard the opposite

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:23 pm

Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:59 pm

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Spot on analysis. In addition, "somebody" had to run Elmwood Park when Cerone & Messino were in Jail & Gagliano had died. There's no question that it was DiFronzo. The only reason DiFronzo & Carlisi "seemed" possibly a little less important than Lombardo or Pilotto or Solano was because they were a little over shadowed by Cerone & Auippa since those two Crews were the power bases of Cerone & Auippa & when push came to shove, those two represented them. However, that being said, look who became the #1 & #2 in the mid 80's. It was none other than Carlisi & DiFronzo.

The "original" disagreement in this thread was when that other poster said that Lombardo was "way above DiFronzo" before he went to Jail in the mid 80's". Completely disagree with that exaggerated statement 100%. Lombardo & DiFronzo were on a very complimentary horizontal level in the mid 80's. Lombardo a little more because of the Teamsters & DiFronzo a little more because he was the eventual #2 & a great earner. Pretty even.

I’m still waiting on your official reports that states Difronzo became a capo in 1970 and that he was close to Lombardo. I mean your all about official FBI reports so I would love to see them.

Lombardo and Difronzo were indicted for running a loansharking ring together in 1961, a charge which they both beat by beating the shit out of a witness. There is literally mug shots of them side by side in the paper. Google it. Pretty sure they were fairly close early on.

They both grew up in the Grand Ave Patch in the same age cohort. As a teen DiFronzo lived on the same block as Jimmy Legs D'Antonio (Erie & Wolcott) who was close with Lombardo since they were kids, so these guys all knew each other from way back.

This reminds me, I have a pic of DiFronzo from the Wells HS yearbook. I'll post it sometime.

Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:59 pm

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Spot on analysis. In addition, "somebody" had to run Elmwood Park when Cerone & Messino were in Jail & Gagliano had died. There's no question that it was DiFronzo. The only reason DiFronzo & Carlisi "seemed" possibly a little less important than Lombardo or Pilotto or Solano was because they were a little over shadowed by Cerone & Auippa since those two Crews were the power bases of Cerone & Auippa & when push came to shove, those two represented them. However, that being said, look who became the #1 & #2 in the mid 80's. It was none other than Carlisi & DiFronzo.

The "original" disagreement in this thread was when that other poster said that Lombardo was "way above DiFronzo" before he went to Jail in the mid 80's". Completely disagree with that exaggerated statement 100%. Lombardo & DiFronzo were on a very complimentary horizontal level in the mid 80's. Lombardo a little more because of the Teamsters & DiFronzo a little more because he was the eventual #2 & a great earner. Pretty even.

I’m still waiting on your official reports that states Difronzo became a capo in 1970 and that he was close to Lombardo. I mean your all about official FBI reports so I would love to see them.

Lombardo and Difronzo were indicted for running a loansharking ring together in 1961, a charge which they both beat by beating the shit out of a witness. There is literally mug shots of them side by side in the paper. Google it. Pretty sure they were fairly close early on.

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:59 pm

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Spot on analysis. In addition, "somebody" had to run Elmwood Park when Cerone & Messino were in Jail & Gagliano had died. There's no question that it was DiFronzo. The only reason DiFronzo & Carlisi "seemed" possibly a little less important than Lombardo or Pilotto or Solano was because they were a little over shadowed by Cerone & Auippa since those two Crews were the power bases of Cerone & Auippa & when push came to shove, those two represented them. However, that being said, look who became the #1 & #2 in the mid 80's. It was none other than Carlisi & DiFronzo.

The "original" disagreement in this thread was when that other poster said that Lombardo was "way above DiFronzo" before he went to Jail in the mid 80's". Completely disagree with that exaggerated statement 100%. Lombardo & DiFronzo were on a very complimentary horizontal level in the mid 80's. Lombardo a little more because of the Teamsters & DiFronzo a little more because he was the eventual #2 & a great earner. Pretty even.

I’m still waiting on your official reports that states Difronzo became a capo in 1970 and that he was close to Lombardo. I mean your all about official FBI reports so I would love to see them.

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:16 pm

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Spot on analysis. In addition, "somebody" had to run Elmwood Park when Cerone & Messino were in Jail & Gagliano had died. There's no question that it was DiFronzo. The only reason DiFronzo & Carlisi "seemed" possibly a little less important than Lombardo or Pilotto or Solano was because they were a little over shadowed by Cerone & Auippa since those two Crews were the power bases of Cerone & Auippa & when push came to shove, those two represented them. However, that being said, look who became the #1 & #2 in the mid 80's. It was none other than Carlisi & DiFronzo.

The "original" disagreement in this thread was when that other poster said that Lombardo was "way above DiFronzo" before he went to Jail in the mid 80's". Completely disagree with that exaggerated statement 100%. Lombardo & DiFronzo were on a very complimentary horizontal level in the mid 80's. Lombardo a little more because of the Teamsters & DiFronzo a little more because he was the eventual #2 & a great earner. Pretty even.

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm I also believe DiFronzo succeeded Joe Gags as capo of EP. Cerone replaced Battaglia as acting boss then went to prison, then Ricca and Accardo took more active roles. After Aiuppa was released he became the day-to-acting boss under Accardo, since Ricca's health declined and died in 1972. Alex was the third member of the triumvirate, along with Chuck Nicoletti working closely with Aiuppa. Once Cerone came out he became the Outfit underboss. DiFronzo remained the EP capo until he was promoted to underboss when Aiuppa went back to prison and he officially stepped down as boss for Sam Carlisi. Lee Mags replaced him, followed by Joe Andriacchi. At some point while Andriacchi was capo he tried to shut down EP.

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:20 pm I don't believe that Cerone became underboss until 1975 or 1976. He was admittedly weary of resuming a prominent role in the organization and preferred to take a lesser role in affairs for his first couple of years out of prison. However, he eventually came around (partly for financial reasons) and with Alex basically retiring to Florida and Accardo also taking less of an active role he re-entered the top ranks of the organization. I think the place was always there for him should he want it, he just didn't actively pursue until after he had been out of prison for a while.

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:56 am

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:15 am

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:37 am I dont remember really so maybe Antiliar, Snakes, Confederate or Pete can chime in, but i think that the Magnafichis were the source regarding DiFronzo succeeding Gagliano in 71 or maybe im wrong, i dunno maybe Calabrese was the one who said something...by the early 70s besides Gagliano being dead, both Messino and Cerone were in prison, Cardi was also out of the picture abd so there werent many top EP guys left on the st at the time...anyways later Magnafichi allegedly succeeded DiFronzo as capo of EP when the latter one became the underboss....btw what time period Joe Kong was the alleged capo of EP? Was it before or after Magnafichi?

Villian, I’m pretty sure Fosco is the one that said that. I personally don’t think Cerone relinquished control of the EP crew while he was in upper management. He only did about three years in the early 70s. He also had his personal underboss working for him and doing everything he wanted, Willie Messino. Messino was in prison from 70-76. The last supper picture was taken at Harlem and Diversey. Right on the border of Elmwood Park. If Difronzo was a capo at that time, I’m pretty sure he would have been there. If Difronzo was the EP boss, it’s very likely it was acting during that time. I remember seeing Outfit charts and not seeing him in that spot. I have to look again to confirm. As for Culotta, I’m not sure he ever really was EP boss. I know the CCC listed him as a lieutenant in their 97 chart. His brother claims he was not.

Thanks for the info on Culotta and Fosco, although im going to wait for Antiliars answer also since i think he mentioned some additional stuff....

I agree that almost every boss or underboss in the Outfits history never relinquished their power over their own crews...for example Ricca never relinquished his power over his Taylor St faction, nor did Accardo over his EP crew...same story goes for underbosses such as Ferraro who always had full control over the Chinatown/Cicero/South Side faction, or Battaglia over the MP, Stone Park and Northlake faction...BUT they all had their own district bosses aka capos who controlled the day to day ops

So theres no question that Cerone represented EPs interests on that 1976 photo....and by the way, do you see a Cicero/MP rep on that same photo? I dont think so since Aiuppa represented his own group or Ortenzis and Carlisis interests, besides he being the boss at the time.

Cerone was released in 1973....it is very well documented that Alex asked Accardo for Cerone to take his place temporarly....in 1974, Cerone is seen having meetings with top individuals such as Aiuppa and even the recently deported Giancana....the files say (thanks to Snakes) that after Giancanas demise, in September or October, Cerone became the official underboss which possibly means that Aiuppa also became official and Alex was also back in the game. Do you see Alex on that photo? I dont think so but we have that other pic with Gus and Sam Alex, Accardo, Aiuppa, Cerone and Marcy, and on top of that we also have numerous sources, even later from the 80s, that Alex was the Outfits "consigliere" or senior advisor....

So my point is that DiFronzo was a sleeper during those days and became a capo sometime between 1971 and 1976....there was no way during those days for some1 to become the underboss without previously serving at least 5 or 6 years as a district boss.....when Messino got out of jail, he worked as Cerones chauffer, bodyguard and personal assistant....he was probably looked upon as elder statesman by the rest of the EP crew but i dont think that he had any kind of personal control over it