THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **JeremyTheJew** » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:29 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7mQVy_CmbUc

Capone niece w a fairly new interview.
U can tell she is tryna get her last hoora but she to late and her and Gianni Russo would be a great team lol.

Her w her evidence that al capone was Not Involved with st val massacre lol

by **motorfab** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:43 am

Thanks a lot Villain & Antiliar.

by **BarrettM** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:00 am

How did the gregarious, freewheeling Capone, carefree and sort of indifferent to rigidity manage to take over an organization that was, at least in that era, a secret society obsessed with secrecy, hierarchy, codes, decorum, councils, and again, secrecy? Capone and let's say, Nicolo Gentile seem like polar opposites.
I know people have different personality types but really.

by **Antiliar** » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:08 pm

There's a lot of misinformation about the Unione Siciliana too. Judge Bernard Barasa was the national president after Tony D'Andrea was killed, and I think he was the president until around 1929 (don't quote me on the year - it's been a while since I looked it up). He denied that Genna or Ammatuna were ever heads of any US chapter. The problem was the police and the press conflated the US with the Mafia, probably because D'Andrea was the head of both. I think Angelo Genna and then Ammatuna may have tried to force their way as heads of the Chicago Mafia, but as Villain said they weren't recognized by the governo centrale (basically, Toto D'Aquila).

by **Villain** » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:07 am

I think Ammatuna inherited the position of Angelo Genna as boss of their faction while Lombardo was considered boss of the family...both Ammatuna and Genna declared themselves as presidents of the unione, one after the other, and so i dont think they were considered official and there was no space or time for them to become heads of the family.

Merlo died in November 1924 and shortly after that Lombardo arrived and allegedly tried to settle the disputes between Genna and Aiello. When Genna got eliminated, Aiello took over parts of their areas around the West Side and became Lombardos underboss.

During the year of 1925, both Genna and Ammatuna were killed. Angelo was taken down in May while Ammatuna went down in August, so if they considered themselves at the helm of the Mafia, they were obviously on their own since they werent allegedly recognized by the "governo centrale" back in New York. I also believe that later Aiello tried to do something similar but he also went down quite fast.

by **motorfab** » Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:38 am

Samoots Ammatuna was not considered Boss in 1925 ? Or did he get killed before he became the recognized boss ? I never really knew if he was or not ..

by **aleksandrored** » Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:05 am

Thanks for the explanation man.

by **Antiliar** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:24 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:31 pm I know the topic is a little old, but it was rereading and I had some doubts:
The Chicago Mafia Boss in the 1920s was Anthony D'Andrea, followed by Mike Merlo, then Antonio Lombardo, and after Lombardo's death it was Patsy Lorordo, but at that time Capone, who was a capodecina of Masseria, was at war with Aiello to control and absorb the guanges, did he achieve this in 1930, but was he only recognized as chief by Maranzano in 1931? that's right?

If Capone Mob and the North Side were not part of the Chicago mafia, were they isolated and separate gangs?

Here's the list of bosses:
Mariano Zagone (c1902-1909, killed)
Rosario Dispenza (1909-1914, killed)
Anthony D'Andrea (1914-1921, killed)
Mike Merlo (1921-1924, died of cancer)
Tony Lombardo (1925-1928, killed)
Pasquale Lolordo (1928, killed)
Giuseppe Giunta (1928-1929, killed)
Joe Aiello (1929-1930, killed)
Toto Loverde (1930-1931, demoted and later killed)
Absorbed into (Al Capone) Chicago Outfit, 1931.

Aiello was Lombardo's underboss, but he separated from Lombardo because of Lombardo's support of Capone. Lolordo, Giunta and Loverde were puppets of Capone. Aiello (a North Sider) created his own faction (the details of which are unknown) that was responsible for killing Lolordo. He took over from Giunta (who betrayed Capone and was killed for it) while Capone and Rio were in prison, but the Outfit killed him anyway in October 1930. We don't know why Loverde was killed, but he had already been demoted by then.

by **aleksandrored** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:31 pm

I know the topic is a little old, but it was rereading and I had some doubts:
The Chicago Mafia Boss in the 1920s was Anthony D'Andrea, followed by Mike Merlo, then Antonio Lombardo, and after Lombardo's death it was Patsy Lorordo, but at that time Capone, who was a capodecina of Masseria, was at war with Aiello to control and absorb the guanges, did he achieve this in 1930, but was he only recognized as chief by Maranzano in 1931? that's right?

If Capone Mob and the North Side were not part of the Chicago mafia, were they isolated and separate gangs?

by **Confederate** » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:39 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:53 am
PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:46 am Eto's use of "boss of all bosses" is an interesting and I think telling phrase. Helps to further underscore the model that Chicago worked as something close to an affiliation of distinct "families", with a committee of territorial bosses and high level capos under a centralized executive directed by a top boss. In this way, not so different from the pre-Commission American Mafia, though I think that if Chicago had something like a similar model it's likely attributable to the legacy of Capone's absorption of allied organizations (e.g. -- the Loop/Near South/Cicero directly from the Capone gang, Taylor St from the 42's, the North side and the Heights from the old Sicilian family(ies), Grand Ave/EP from the Circus Gang boys).
It was like four Barons under one top admin, who controlled four specific large areas or each "providence" had a Baron with his own district bosses or capos reporting to him at the time. According to some sources, some Camorra chiefs, both men and women especially from Castellammare di Stabia area, were referenced as "Barons" or "Baronesses" and they transferred orders to the rest of the district chiefs, which were previously received by the boss himself. We also have the Pittsburgh family using the term "capo squadrone", a position that was above the capodecina and caporegime guys, but below the boss and underboss. Some say that during one period the Genoveses also had three territorial bosses who were above the rest of the capos or something like that....same story goes for their one time top administration...

I also think that similar structures were seen in Sicily but besides using this type of hierarchy, we must not forget that the Chicago Outfit was completely Americanized organization by giving some of those same high level spots to non-Italians, and on top of that, during the period between 1948 and 1955 they further upgraded their organization by adding two top level positions, such as the top boss or "boss of all bosses" position, followed by another senior advisor/semi-retired spot.

Back in the days I used to read that Ricca kept few of the top positions reserved only for the Italians, such as the top boss spot followed by the boss and underboss spots, since we have dozens of evidences that the senior advisor position was often occupied by non-Italians, same as some of the territorial boss positions, especially from around the South Side aka the old Capone faction, and also numerous crew boss positions also taken by non-Italians with many made guys being beneath them. John Moore aka Claude Maddox wasn't Aiuppa's "OPERATIONAL" boss, but instead he was his official mentor and official boss, since both Aiuppa and Bobby Ansani couldn't lift a finger without Maddox's approval during one time (around three decades).

Yes, similar but definitely "different" from many of the other Families. The big reason is that The Outfit "evolved" from a "different" beginning. That's the key to the whole thing. In the long run, nobody cared if there was a difference in structure or if the terminology used was somewhat different. Only outsiders decades later would put so much emphasis on trying to make those differences all the same. The prime motivation of the Outfit was making money, not debating about titles. I'm sure when the Bosses around the Country got together in a Commission meeting, the LAST thing they would talk about would be exactly how Chicago was structured or what titles were used to describe power relationships in the Outfit. Not everything revolved around being "Sicilian". There were other influences from Naples & Calabria involved as described in the above posting. These guys were smart enough to understand some differences & only cared about how they could have more power, more money & not be compromised by informants or worse, get killed. Nobody at the Commission meeting in 1931 demanded that Capone make any "changes" to the Outfit so they could understand all the intricacies of it better. Nobody cared & it was irrelevant to reality.

by **Villain** » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:53 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:46 am Eto's use of "boss of all bosses" is an interesting and I think telling phrase. Helps to further underscore the model that Chicago worked as something close to an affiliation of distinct "families", with a committee of territorial bosses and high level capos under a centralized executive directed by a top boss. In this way, not so different from the pre-Commission American Mafia, though I think that if Chicago had something like a similar model it's likely attributable to the legacy of Capone's absorption of allied organizations (e.g. -- the Loop/Near South/Cicero directly from the Capone gang, Taylor St from the 42's, the North side and the Heights from the old Sicilian family(ies), Grand Ave/EP from the Circus Gang boys).

It was like four Barons under one top admin, who controlled four specific large areas or each "providence" had a Baron with his own district bosses or capos reporting to him at the time. According to some sources, some Camorra chiefs, both men and women especially from around the Castellammare di Stabia area, were referenced as "Barons" or "Baronesses" and they transferred orders to the rest of the district chiefs, which were previously received by the boss himself. We also have the Pittsburgh family using the term "capo squadrone", a position that was above the capodecina and caporegime guys, but below the boss and underboss. Some say that during one period the Genoveses also had three territorial bosses who were above the rest of the capos or something like that....same story goes for their one time top administration...

I also think that similar structures were seen in Sicily but besides using this type of hierarchy, we must not forget that the Chicago Outfit was completely Americanized organization by giving some of those same high level spots to non-Italians, and on top of that, during the period between 1948 and 1955 they further upgraded their organization by adding two top level positions, such as the top boss or "boss of all bosses" position, followed by another senior advisor/semi-retired spot.

Back in the days I used to read that Ricca kept few of the top positions reserved only for the Italians, such as the top boss spot followed by the boss and underboss spots, since we have dozens of evidences that the senior advisor position was often occupied by non-Italians, same as some of the territorial boss positions, especially from around the South Side aka the old Capone faction, and also numerous crew boss positions also taken by non-Italians with many made guys being beneath them. John Moore aka Claude Maddox wasnt Aiuppa's "OPERATIONAL" boss, but instead he was his official mentor and official boss, since both Aiuppa and Bobby Ansani couldnt lift a finger without Maddox's approval during one time (around three decades).

by **PolackTony** » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:46 am

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:28 am
Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:51 am The American LCN was based upon greed, power & money. The "cultural" aspect of it was very secondary. Let's get real about it & not over "romanticize" the cultural part. Do you think Joe Massera & Salvatore Maranzano really cared that much about "Sicilian Culture" before anything else? If that were true, then they would not have tried to kill each other, now would they? To focus obsessively about the cultural aspect of the American LCN is a Joseph Bonnano fairy tale. When it came right down to it, all that really mattered was power, money & a lot of betrayal by a bunch of sociopaths, some worse than others.
Few weeks ago i watched the doc about Ken Eto and it is interesting to note that at the beginning the feds thought that his case was small potatoes since he wasnt Italian, but in the end it came out that Eto knew a lot of stuff regarding the inner workings of the Outfit and also had close connections with the Genoveses, and so they labeled him as high ranking Oriental member of the Mob lol

In addition, Eto labeled Accardo as the "boss of all bosses" of the Chicago syndicate, with Aiuppa and Cerone right beneath him

Yes, it's a very Chicago story that we had a Japanese guy working for the Mafia running the Puerto Rican "bolita" racket. Not just an accident of history of course, but the result of the particular history of ethnic succession and settlement in the Old Town area (despite the massive gentrification some of the Japanese are still in Old Town. I used to work with a bunch of them. Super blue collar, harcdore Chicago accent guys. Needless to say, but the Sicilians and PRs mostly left a long time ago).

Eto's use of "boss of all bosses" is an interesting and I think telling phrase. Helps to further underscore the model that Chicago worked as something close to an affiliation of distinct "families", with a committee of territorial bosses and high level capos under a centralized executive directed by a top boss. In this way, not so different from the pre-Commission American Mafia, though I think that if Chicago had something like a similar model it's likely attributable to the legacy of Capone's absorption of allied organizations (e.g. -- the Loop/Near South/Cicero directly from the Capone gang, Taylor St from the 42's, the North side and the Heights from the old Sicilian family(ies), Grand Ave/EP from the Circus Gang boys).

by **Villain** » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:28 am

Confederate wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:51 am The American LCN was based upon greed, power & money. The "cultural" aspect of it was very secondary. Let's get real about it & not over "romanticize" the cultural part. Do you think Joe Massera & Salvatore Maranzano really cared that much about "Sicilian Culture" before anything else? If that were true, then they would not have tried to kill each other, now would they? To focus obsessively about the cultural aspect of the American LCN is a Joseph Bonnano fairy tale. When it came right down to it, all that really mattered was power, money & a lot of betrayal by a bunch of sociopaths, some worse than others.

Few weeks ago i watched the doc about Ken Eto and it is interesting to note that at the beginning the feds thought that his case was small potatoes since he wasnt Italian, but in the end it came out that Eto knew a lot of stuff regarding the inner workings of the Outfit and also had close connections with the Genoveses, and so they labeled him as high ranking Oriental member of the Mob lol

In addition, Eto labeled Accardo as the "boss of all bosses" of the Chicago syndicate, with Aiuppa and Cerone right beneath him

by **Confederate** » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:51 am

The American LCN was based upon greed, power & money. The "cultural" aspect of it was very secondary. Let's get real about it & not over "romanticize" the cultural part. Do you think Joe Massera & Salvatore Maranzano really cared that much about "Sicilian Culture" before anything else? If that were true, then they would not have tried to kill each other, now would they? To focus obsessively about the cultural aspect of the American LCN is a Joseph Bonnano fairy tale. When it came right down to it, all that really mattered was power, money & a lot of betrayal by a bunch of sociopaths, some worse than others.

by **Confederate** » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:07 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:54 am Booyah

This is one quite interesting file which confirms the elimination of the Sicilian influence in Chicago

Sicilian influence gone.

THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Capone and the Mafia

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