Capone and the Mafia

[Villain]

I understand you're saying Humphreys and Alex were defacto non-Italian "consiglieri" based on their duties and that this meant the Chicago family didn't need an Italian made member performing the duties of a consigliere, but I'm not understanding how that confirms the Chicago organization never had a single member in an official consigliere position throughout their history, especially in the early years where there are few if any member sources.

Is there a transcript where Murray Humphreys explicitly says the Chicago family never had a consigliere within the organization? If so, can you post it?

I'm not out to prove that Chicago did have a consigliere, only curious what information there is that confirms they never had one. As mentioned before, the duties of an official consiglieri can vary from relatively powerless to someone with power and influence near-equal to the boss. Sometimes they're prominent, other times they go completely under the radar. Even in the Genovese family we only know of one consigliere between 1932-1957, that being Alessandro Pandolfo, but he wasn't alive during that entire time frame and if not for a couple small comments by Valachi we wouldn't know he ever held the position.

Magaddino was recorded saying flat out that he never allowed a consigliere in his family because it was an elected position that could rival the power of the boss. There is no room to interpret it, but even with that definitive statement it only covers Magaddino's tenure as boss and not the years before and after his reign. Even with that statement we can't say that Buffalo never had a consigliere in its history, only that Magaddino didn't allow one during his first 40 years as boss.

I'm not seeing the evidence that Chicago never had an official consigliere in its history, as the absence of evidence isn't proof. I agree there doesn't seem to be much proof that they did have one either, but it's difficult to draw conclusions from the limited sources we have over such a large span of time.

Theres a lot of proof...ok lets look at the situation like this...i want to hear your thoughts, who do you think was the Outfits Italian/Sicilian consigliere lets say during the Giancana era? Pick one...

[Villain]

I understand you're saying Humphreys and Alex were defacto non-Italian "consiglieri" based on their duties and that this meant the Chicago family didn't need an Italian made member performing the duties of a consigliere, but I'm not understanding how that confirms the Chicago organization never had a single member in an official consigliere position throughout their history, especially in the early years where there are few if any member sources.

Also what do you mean by this doesnt confirm the theory that there wasnt any Italian consiglere? They were the only ones, meaning Guzik, Humphreys and Alex and there was no1 else...i already told you, if you dont believe what im saying, study them yourself...i believe we already placed a lot of evidences in your Understanding Chicago thread and dont get me wrong, but im tired of constantly going in circles

We dont have any proof regarding a Italian consigliere position in Chicago and thats why we say there was none. You see the glass half empty, i see it half full

Also am i talking to one or two guys regarding the same stuff....one right after the other...you guys are on shifts or something lol just kid

[Confederate]

I understand you're saying Humphreys and Alex were defacto non-Italian "consiglieri" based on their duties and that this meant the Chicago family didn't need an Italian made member performing the duties of a consigliere, but I'm not understanding how that confirms the Chicago organization never had a single member in an official consigliere position throughout their history, especially in the early years where there are few if any member sources.

Is there a transcript where Murray Humphreys explicitly says the Chicago family never had a consigliere within the organization? If so, can you post it?

I'm not out to prove that Chicago did have a consigliere, only curious what information there is that confirms they never had one. As mentioned before, the duties of an official consiglieri can vary from relatively powerless to someone with power and influence near-equal to the boss. Sometimes they're prominent, other times they go completely under the radar. Even in the Genovese family we only know of one consigliere between 1932-1957, that being Alessandro Pandolfo, but he wasn't alive during that entire time frame and if not for a couple small comments by Valachi we wouldn't know he ever held the position.

Magaddino was recorded saying flat out that he never allowed a consigliere in his family because it was an elected position that could rival the power of the boss. There is no room to interpret it, but even with that definitive statement it only covers Magaddino's tenure as boss and not the years before and after his reign. Even with that statement we can't say that Buffalo never had a consigliere in its history, only that Magaddino didn't allow one during his first 40 years as boss.

I'm not seeing the evidence that Chicago never had an official consigliere in its history, as the absence of evidence isn't proof. I agree there doesn't seem to be much proof that they did have one either, but it's difficult to draw conclusions from the limited sources we have over such a large span of time.

I find it amazing that you completely ignore Nick Calabrese's testimony where he laid out the complete structure of the Outfit & never mentioned anybody being a "Consigliere". If that position was so important, than he would have mentioned it.

[Villain]

Its not just Nick, we also have tons of info regarding the Outfits top admin during the 70s...Antiliar also gave one good example regarding Mags' info on Alex but it seems thats not enough

No1 can read about any Italian consiglere in the Outfit since there was none...its that simple. If theres no proof about its existence, it means that it never existed.

[B.]

I'm not trying to prove they had an official consigliere at any given time, only that there is no definitive evidence that they "never" had one, which is what was said earlier. "Never" is a strong word to use for an organization that has had relatively few member informants/witnesses covering its long, murky history.

The discussion keeps getting twisted into a different conversation than the one we were having, but so far I haven't seen any information that definitively proves the Chicago family "never" had a consigliere. Whether they didn't have one for particular periods, i.e. Calabrese's era or Giancana's reign, is a completely different discussion that can't be thrown in as a strawman that covers the entire history of the organization. We're talking about more than a century of mafia activity, with many of the inner-workings unknown to us.

We dont have any proof regarding a Italian consigliere position in Chicago and thats why we say there was none. You see the glass half empty, i see it half full

Because there is no proof there was a consigliere, you can definitively say there never was a consigliere? That sounds more like half-empty to me. The absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.

If you were to say, "There is no known evidence that Chicago had an official consigliere," I would agree with that. On the other hand, saying, "There is no known evidence that Chicago had an official consigliere, therefore we know for fact they never had an official consigliere," is a different statement that I can't logically agree with. It isn't a matter of agreeing in terms of personal opinion, but agreeing with the logic of that conclusion.

With that, we can at least agree to disagree.

[Villain]

Well if theres no proof that ghosts exist, that doesnt mean they are all around us, right?! Thats you logic??????????? Ok, i obviously and absolutely agree to disagree. No evidence..."i agree to disagree" exit....love that game. cheers

[Confederate]

Its not just Nick, we also have tons of info regarding the Outfits top admin during the 70s...Antiliar also gave one good example regarding Mags' info on Alex but it seems that's not enough

After a certain point, some people are not seeking the truth anymore, They are instead following an "Obsession" to make everything fit into a neat little box. Nick Calabrese, the only made guy to ever testify under Oath in Court, laid out the complete Outfit Structure & never once named anybody as a "Consigliere". If it was such an important Official position, he would have mentioned it, especially a high ranking position.

[Villain]

Its not just Nick, we also have tons of info regarding the Outfits top admin during the 70s...Antiliar also gave one good example regarding Mags' info on Alex but it seems that's not enough

After a certain point, some people are not seeking the truth anymore, They are instead following an "Obsession" to make everything fit into a neat little box. Nick Calabrese, the only made guy to ever testify under Oath in Court, laid out the complete Outfit Structure & never once named anybody as a "Consigliere". If it was such an important Official position, he would have mentioned it, especially a high ranking position.

But you dont understand....theres POSSIBLY someone in the background that even God himself never heard of....you are obviously not familiar with all of the posibilities in the world

[Frank]

I wonder if they had a consiglieri in the old days, before Capone was inducted. So pre Capone LCN.

[B.]

I wonder if they had a consiglieri in the old days, before Capone was inducted. So pre Capone LCN.

That's it -- without information from a member who was there or who heard from another member, we can't see in from the outside. Magaddino was a boss in the 1920s and didn't have a consigliere, meanwhile a tiny family like San Francisco did have one in 1929. It's difficult to know when a family did and didn't follow the typical structure and protocol without someone who was there and even then we're sometimes at a loss.

We also don't know if early Chicago had a council / consiglio / "seggia" like Milwaukee, St. Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Tampa, and other families around the country. This was a formal council that included the administration members, captains, and senior members and helped dictate policy and conduct underworld trials within the family alongside the boss. Some of the later descriptions of Chicago's structure are reminiscent of this which makes you wonder if it evolved from the earlier council / consiglio that we saw around the country.

[Confederate]

I wonder if they had a consiglieri in the old days, before Capone was inducted. So pre Capone LCN.

That's it -- without information from a member who was there or who heard from another member, we can't see in from the outside. Magaddino was a boss in the 1920s and didn't have a consigliere, meanwhile a tiny family like San Francisco did have one in 1929. It's difficult to know when a family did and didn't follow the typical structure and protocol without someone who was there and even then we're sometimes at a loss.

We also don't know if early Chicago had a council / consiglio / "seggia" like Milwaukee, St. Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Tampa, and other families around the country. This was a formal council that included the administration members, captains, and senior members and helped dictate policy and conduct underworld trials within the family alongside the boss. Some of the later descriptions of Chicago's structure are reminiscent of this which makes you wonder if it evolved from the earlier council / consiglio that we saw around the country.

All the evidence presented so far by Villain shows what you just said to be false but you keep ignoring it on purpose. The Capone organization before 1931 was most definitely NOT like any Mafia Family. It was a "Business Syndicate" with guys in charge of different things without Sicilian Titles.
The money didn't flow upward in tributes like the Mafia. The money flowed mainly downward & was accounted for by Guzik in ledgers & most people were put on payrolls. This was how the Government determined Capone's Income tax case & came up with the Figure of $105 Million in Gross revenue in 1927. You need to research the early Capone years & the income tax case against him more thoroughly & then you might have a better grasp of it.
You see, this is the big difference between you & Antiliar.

[Frank]

But I was talking about the old Lcn chicago family or families not Capone or the Outfit lol.

[Villain]

But I was talking about the old Lcn chicago family or families not Capone or the Outfit lol.

The old Sicilian Mafia probably had that position but everything changed the moment when Capone and the mainlanders took over their organization and eliminated 90% of them.

[Villain]

Booyah

This is one quite interesting file which confirms the elimination of the Sicilian influence in Chicago

[Villain]

And another one...