THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Super wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:25 pm

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:27 am

thekiduknow wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm Has there been any information on whether shelved members are counted? For all intents and purposes they are not recognized by other mafiosi, but learning that CWs are counted I wonder if they shelved members can be replaced?

No information what i know of but i cant imagine shelved members can be replaced.

I agree hairy cos how many members have been shelved and later on able to return to the family when a new boss takes over or other circumstances change.

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:27 am

thekiduknow wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm Has there been any information on whether shelved members are counted? For all intents and purposes they are not recognized by other mafiosi, but learning that CWs are counted I wonder if they shelved members can be replaced?

No information what i know of but i cant imagine shelved members can be replaced.

roydemeo wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:22 am In the The Changing Face of ORGANIZED CRIME IN NEW JERSEY – A Status Report(May 2004) State of New Jersey Commission of Investigation

Is write:

Despite the assaults by law enforcement and the apparent slowdown in membership recruitment, law enforcement authorities estimate the group still consists of from 110 to 140 members, with approximately 50 members active in New Jersey. The organization has at least 1,100 associates engaged in criminal activity primarily in New York, where the group’s hierarchy is located.

Ok the report is 16 y old and neve been 50 made men active in nj but to pass to 110 to 70 made men in 16 y seems strange to me.

Despite the assaults by law enforcement and the apparent slowdown in membership recruitment, law enforcement authorities estimate the group still consists of from 110 to 140 members, with approximately 50 members active in New Jersey. The organization has at least 1,100 associates engaged in criminal activity primarily in New York, where the group’s hierarchy is located.

thekiduknow wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm Has there been any information on whether shelved members are counted? For all intents and purposes they are not recognized by other mafiosi, but learning that CWs are counted I wonder if they shelved members can be replaced?

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:39 pm

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:59 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:18 pmWho was it who said the families still considered members who flipped an cooperated were still members until they died naturally or were killed ? I know over the years a few members including high ranking figures , Bosses and others have stated this . Can't remember exactly who but it was stated . Maybe Dileonardo , Vitals , Massino , D'arco ? Or others ? But I remember reading this , Maybe in testimony ? But I could never understand this point of view that an inducted member waa still a member until death whether they cooperated or not. Maybe someone knows who I'm talking about ? Any Info ? Great Post guys !!!

I think you may be talking about families are not allowed to replace guys who've flipped until they die. They're obviously not going to still recognize a defector. And they're certainly not included in FBI membership estimates.

Ok , That's most likely it and not the other way around . I gotta get with the program because I read alot but forget who said what and forget where I read some of this stuff ! Thanks for clarifying

Actually Cicale claimed that CW are still considered as members as long as they are still alive. Which is odd. Not sure if it´s in his book or in the interview with Scarpo.

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:39 pm

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:59 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:18 pmWho was it who said the families still considered members who flipped an cooperated were still members until they died naturally or were killed ? I know over the years a few members including high ranking figures , Bosses and others have stated this . Can't remember exactly who but it was stated . Maybe Dileonardo , Vitals , Massino , D'arco ? Or others ? But I remember reading this , Maybe in testimony ? But I could never understand this point of view that an inducted member waa still a member until death whether they cooperated or not. Maybe someone knows who I'm talking about ? Any Info ? Great Post guys !!!

I think you may be talking about families are not allowed to replace guys who've flipped until they die. They're obviously not going to still recognize a defector. And they're certainly not included in FBI membership estimates.

Ok , That's most likely it and not the other way around . I gotta get with the program because I read alot but forget who said what and forget where I read some of this stuff ! Thanks for clarifying

Actually Cicale claimed that CW are still considered as members as long as they are still alive. Which is odd. Not sure if it´s in his book or in the interview with Scarpo.

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:59 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:18 pmWho was it who said the families still considered members who flipped an cooperated were still members until they died naturally or were killed ? I know over the years a few members including high ranking figures , Bosses and others have stated this . Can't remember exactly who but it was stated . Maybe Dileonardo , Vitals , Massino , D'arco ? Or others ? But I remember reading this , Maybe in testimony ? But I could never understand this point of view that an inducted member waa still a member until death whether they cooperated or not. Maybe someone knows who I'm talking about ? Any Info ? Great Post guys !!!

I think you may be talking about families are not allowed to replace guys who've flipped until they die. They're obviously not going to still recognize a defector. And they're certainly not included in FBI membership estimates.

Ok , That's most likely it and not the other way around . I gotta get with the program because I read alot but forget who said what and forget where I read some of this stuff ! Thanks for clarifying

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:32 am Anyone who understands those charts knows that they are not a complete listing of all members. We can only compile lists of names of members made public through news articles, indictments, press releases, reports, etc. Obviously there are other members, most likely known to the feds but some not, that we don't have on those lists. That's why you have to look at the charts, as well as figures from law enforcement.

roydemeo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:10 am Pogo,do you think that is a Lucchese strategy for have only 85 made men and increase the number of associates?
What I means is: like the outfit,few good made men and many associates.

Hailbritain wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:49 pm I’m not sure how these estimates can be realistic . Yes pogo’s charts are second to none . But who really knows ?? We don’t know how many making ceremony’s the Genovese or Colombo families have had since anyone flipped . For all anyone really knows the Genovese family , say could have had a making ceremony a month ago and made 5 people ??? Nobody really knows . These estimates realistically could be 20 - 30 members out