Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

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Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:30 am

I think Renaud was accurate, it will take either a charismatic leader, or a common enemy to pull the factions back together. Clearly brute force and or strength isnt enough.

Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:27 am

A more simple explanation of the clan aspect..... provided by Johhny Sack.....



"I see a lot people start fuckin around, power vaccuum, nobody sure WHO to pay, so NO ONE gets paid"...

Or more accurately, no one HAD to kick up anymore. More money in thier pockets, no actual incentive TO go back to the old setup, where they had to kick up.

The underworld evolved. A lot of these guys have decent connections to Mexico and South America, they dont need the Italians as much.

I also think an analysis of Sinaloa coming to Canada, and how it affects the criminal landscape, must at some point be explored...

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Lupara » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:54 am

stubbs wrote:Technically if Montagna was acting boss of the Bonannos, wouldn’t he have been able to sanction the murders himself without anyones approval back in NY? Like if he orders the Rizzutos to be hit, would that be considered “sanctioned by the Bonannos” due to his rank? I guess it depends on his rank after being deported, if he still kept his stripes or was no longer acting and just a capo.
Good question which is why I intentionally said Montagna and the Bonannos. I think it doesn't really matter much what his title was once he was deported, he represented them. I do believe the sanction ultimately came out of New York. Vito Rizzuto himself thought so too btw. And that New York hostage that was with Rizzuto's guys to ensure his safety when he landed is already sufficient prove.
My guess is once he got deported to Montreal he sensed the power vacuum led by Vito being in jail and that Nick Jr didn’t have the respect of the heavy hitters in the streets like Desjardins. So Montagna decided to seize the moment, sending word back to NY what he was doing and NY was probably like, “Sure, sounds great”, letting him do his thing but not able to provide much support. I think NY was took weak and too unorganized post Massino flipping to have their support mean a whole lot during this time period.

And I think Sal was too inexperienced in high-level mob diplomacy to pull it off and keep all of the factions together. He was able to be aggressive enough and bold enough to get people clipped, but keeping everyone in line after taking control requires a whole different skillset.
Agreed. He was in a position to kill the Rizzutos but not to lead the Mafia over there. But I think he may have sensed that himself which is why he wanted Di Maulo to do it. Montagna initially wanted to settle in Toronto. This guy really wasn't as dumb as Edwards and Nicaso described him in their otherwise excellent book.

Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:13 am

@Stubbs

Jesus christ , common sense lives.... Nice Post...
The guy was boss, there really no good reason he didnt have backup from NY, if they were actively plotting this takeover.....

Something that just occured to me.... I think I know why they describe it as a Sicilian vs Calabrian conflict still... bear with me and correct me if I get the timeline fucked up....


These hits by the Scoppas, were they at around the SAME time that the Violis were meeting in restaurants with the Cotronis? Meeting with Arcadi, and telling people, what was it, I know Lupara will ding me, he already corrected me on this...

" Everyone gets along", whatever the fuck they said I forget the exact quote. But were the Calabrian Viis, and Cotronis, privy to the intrigues of the Scoppas? Did they expect them to take over, like imminently?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by stubbs » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:44 am

Lupara wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:01 am
CabriniGreen wrote:I dont wanna argue, but " only the Bonnanos could have...." , this I just cant get with... it's a little tiresome...
Having to explain myself to you again after I already did is tirring so this will be the last time. Only the Bonannos could've sanctioned these murders because these were confirmed Bonanno members, that's just how it works. It really is no coincidence that this happened after Montagna arrived in the city.
Technically if Montagna was acting boss of the Bonannos, wouldn’t he have been able to sanction the murders himself without anyones approval back in NY? Like if he orders the Rizzutos to be hit, would that be considered “sanctioned by the Bonannos” due to his rank? I guess it depends on his rank after being deported, if he still kept his stripes or was no longer acting and just a capo.

The other half of the discussion also has interested me: If Montagna was doing all of this with the backing of other Bonanno leaders in NY, then who were the others backing him up? Did he have backing of the Sicilian faction in NY? We’re seeing a split now between the Sicilians like Grimaldi and Cammarano who just got shelved and Badalamenti and Mancuso retaking control over the family. Did either of these factions support Montagna?

My guess is once he got deported to Montreal he sensed the power vacuum led by Vito being in jail and that Nick Jr didn’t have the respect of the heavy hitters in the streets like Desjardins. So Montagna decided to seize the moment, sending word back to NY what he was doing and NY was probably like, “Sure, sounds great”, letting him do his thing but not able to provide much support. I think NY was took weak and too unorganized post Massino flipping to have their support mean a whole lot during this time period.

And I think Sal was too inexperienced in high-level mob diplomacy to pull it off and keep all of the factions together. He was able to be aggressive enough and bold enough to get people clipped, but keeping everyone in line after taking control requires a whole different skillset.

Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:33 am

lol, I really dont think the " Bonnanos" really knew anything about it, but whatever...

And also, ametuerish? This is the same murder where they cloned cell phones and shit right? No, it went sideways cause Montagna ran through a fuckin window, who plans for that?

I mean, if we believe Renaud, the Rizzutos did an amateur hour job on Dejardins, then got an inside guy to blame Montagna. I dont know if that's stupid or brilliant, or both at the same time......

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Lupara » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:01 am

CabriniGreen wrote:I dont wanna argue, but " only the Bonnanos could have...." , this I just cant get with... it's a little tiresome...
Having to explain myself to you again after I already did is tirring so this will be the last time. Only the Bonannos could've sanctioned these murders because these were confirmed Bonanno members, that's just how it works. It really is no coincidence that this happened after Montagna arrived in the city.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:47 pm

Lupara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:25 am
CabriniGreen wrote:
Lupara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:16 am
Moscone65 wrote:Good points, however the rizzutos didn’t seem to be subservient to the bonnanos whatsoever at that point. The guys in New York think they can do whatever they wanted and look what happened
Paolo Renda lupara bianco'd, Agostino Cuntrera shotgunned to death and Nicolo Rizzuto Sr. sniped through his kitchen window.

Due to freak circumstances Rizzuto was able to make a comeback.
I dont think that was Montagnas personal crew that did that work, my opinion.

It wasnt freak circumstances, Montagna made a couple very specific mistakes that pretty much guaranteed he would fail.

The Rizzutos were reeling from arrest, and in disarray, but still financially powerful with many contacts, THATS what Montagna had to kill off.

In Studying the Rizzutos, the main family I look at is the Inzerillos, I see them as linked.....
I don't have an opinion on who actually carried out the heavy work because I don't know, but only Montagna and the Bonannos could've sanctioned these murders.

The freak circumstance was the amateuristic murder of Montagna which made it easy for the cops, and in turn everyone else, to find out who was behind it, effectively ending the coup and creating a power vacuum. This humiliating situation gave Rizzuto a lucky break because people recognised he was the only one capable to restore order among the factions.

I do agree he made mistakes. He was selfish and lacked diplomacy skills. But he was far from a dummy. Initially he didn't even want to take over himself but just install a new regime, and he offered the position to Joe Di Maulo, which was a smart move. If Di Maulo had taken the spot, with the backing of New York and Toronto, it would've been the end of the Rizzuto regime.
I dont wanna argue, but " only the Bonnanos could have...." , this I just cant get with... it's a little tiresome...

The CONSTRUCTION guy, hired a gang leader to hit Vitos son. This is like a concrete club contractor, hiring Bushawn from the bloods to hit say, Crea or Gigantes kid. This would never happen in NY, but in Canada? lol...

You yourself were surprised the Scoppas tried to push for the top. I dont think they got sanction from NY, do you?


Montagnas faction was a French guy, unmade young gangsters like the Violi brothers, and Miriarchi. Plus the old Cotroni- Bonnano regime.

It's not that he was stupid, just arrogant. My understanding is he couldnt speak french, I mean how was he supposed to deal with the Bikers? He would ALWAYS need someone else to pull all the factions together. He was ALWAYS gonna have to share power, the moment he started playing g the big boss he was doomed.

Actually, I think all Vitos problems stemmed from him trying to be the big boss of Canada, moving into Ontario when he already had all of Montreal, he was a little greedy too.....

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Lupara » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:25 am


CabriniGreen wrote:
Lupara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:16 am
Moscone65 wrote:Good points, however the rizzutos didn’t seem to be subservient to the bonnanos whatsoever at that point. The guys in New York think they can do whatever they wanted and look what happened
Paolo Renda lupara bianco'd, Agostino Cuntrera shotgunned to death and Nicolo Rizzuto Sr. sniped through his kitchen window.

Due to freak circumstances Rizzuto was able to make a comeback.
I dont think that was Montagnas personal crew that did that work, my opinion.

It wasnt freak circumstances, Montagna made a couple very specific mistakes that pretty much guaranteed he would fail.

The Rizzutos were reeling from arrest, and in disarray, but still financially powerful with many contacts, THATS what Montagna had to kill off.

In Studying the Rizzutos, the main family I look at is the Inzerillos, I see them as linked.....
I don't have an opinion on who actually carried out the heavy work because I don't know, but only Montagna and the Bonannos could've sanctioned these murders.

The freak circumstance was the amateuristic murder of Montagna which made it easy for the cops, and in turn everyone else, to find out who was behind it, effectively ending the coup and creating a power vacuum. This humiliating situation gave Rizzuto a lucky break because people recognised he was the only one capable to restore order among the factions.

I do agree he made mistakes. He was selfish and lacked diplomacy skills. But he was far from a dummy. Initially he didn't even want to take over himself but just install a new regime, and he offered the position to Joe Di Maulo, which was a smart move. If Di Maulo had taken the spot, with the backing of New York and Toronto, it would've been the end of the Rizzuto regime.

Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:29 am

Lupara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:16 am
Moscone65 wrote:Good points, however the rizzutos didn’t seem to be subservient to the bonnanos whatsoever at that point. The guys in New York think they can do whatever they wanted and look what happened
Paolo Renda lupara bianco'd, Agostino Cuntrera shotgunned to death and Nicolo Rizzuto Sr. sniped through his kitchen window.

Due to freak circumstances Rizzuto was able to make a comeback.
I dont think that was Montagnas personal crew that did that work, my opinion.

It wasnt freak circumstances, Montagna made a couple very specific mistakes that pretty much guaranteed he would fail.

The Rizzutos were reeling from arrest, and in disarray, but still financially powerful with many contacts, THATS what Montagna had to kill off.

In Studying the Rizzutos, the main family I look at is the Inzerillos, I see them as linked.....

Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Lupara » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:16 am

Moscone65 wrote:Good points, however the rizzutos didn’t seem to be subservient to the bonnanos whatsoever at that point. The guys in New York think they can do whatever they wanted and look what happened
Paolo Renda lupara bianco'd, Agostino Cuntrera shotgunned to death and Nicolo Rizzuto Sr. sniped through his kitchen window.

Due to freak circumstances Rizzuto was able to make a comeback.

Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Moscone65 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:06 am

Good points, however the rizzutos didn’t seem to be subservient to the bonnanos whatsoever at that point. The guys in New York think they can do whatever they wanted and look what happened

Re: RE: Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Lupara » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:27 am

Moscone65 wrote:I think the rizzutos were so serious during the early 2000’s that regardless if they were declared official or not in New York, they were an official family by anyone’s standards. They were probably recognized by people back in Italy anyways, and other groups like the musitanos, ect.
If that was truly the case then Montagna would've been in no position to mingle in their affairs. He would've probably been warned not to try anything and would have to ask for their permission to be there in the first place otherwise he could've been shot on sight. In the 70s mafiosi from Sicily needed to go through the same protocol. Instead Montagna was introduced to other members, was able to muster support in the city by various individuals and able to be received by people in Ontario and gain their support too. He was able to do this because the Rizzutos were part of his family and he had the right to bring them back into the fold. Nothing whatsoever could've happened had they been an 'official' family by anyone's standards.

I do agree, this has been debated endlessly so I'll leave at this. [emoji6]

Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by CabriniGreen » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:07 pm

Moscone65 wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:35 pm I think the rizzutos were so serious during the early 2000’s that regardless if they were declared official or not in New York, they were an official family by anyone’s standards. They were probably recognized by people back in Italy anyways, and other groups like the musitanos, ect.
I seriously challenge the notion that they wernt recognized. But I dont wanna fall down that rabbit hole, it's been debated endlessly. I've said before it's a complicated question of whether it's the Bonnano Montreal crew, or the Canadian branch of the Caruana- Cuntrera- Rizzuto clan.

@Lupara
Fair enough, I guess. But you were just saying things like the Sixth family myth continues, or something like that.

On the Violis.....

Well that's one of the sticking points, right? That the Violis are members of a defunct family. So even as they are LCN, what does it mean (if the family is defunct and the boss legit and retired?) They have a " Right" to all of Toronto, and extended Ontario? We dont believe that, right? Like it's still the 40s and Chicago just OWNs L.A., like just because? Or New Orleans OWNING Texas? Tampa the Carribean?

The Scoppas on the surface look like the Violis to me, but more local. The Violis through familial ties ( and thier own criminal exploits have many more connections.

It's okay if you wanna call it a crew over a clan. But then like others say, if a crew, wheres the rest of the family? And I honestly believe they have BEEN operating like a clan, they recently became LCN. Cece Luppino could been made and he might not even BE a criminal. That was ONLY because he was a Luppino. That's how CLANS work.....

Re: Andrea Scoppa Whacked in Montreal

by Moscone65 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:35 pm

I think the rizzutos were so serious during the early 2000’s that regardless if they were declared official or not in New York, they were an official family by anyone’s standards. They were probably recognized by people back in Italy anyways, and other groups like the musitanos, ect.

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