Lucchese CI from 1969

[Antiliar]

Just found this file in Mary Ferrell and linked to the least redacted version. This CI, out of the San Francisco office, describes in detail Frank Cacciatore's induction into the Genovese Family in 1957 by an "old capo decina" named Pete Delsi. "Taddo Del" [Generoso Del Duca], another capodecina, was also there. Cacciatore and two others were sponsored by "Taddo De Marco." Then in 1958 the CI was inducted into the Lucchese Family. Then he discusses other names including "Sally Burns" Granello (who he says was under Phil Lombardo), Bill Bonanno, and John Montana, who he says was a boss.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... elPageId=1

[Southshore88]

Thanks for posting! Thought it was interesting that the CI stated that one of the places Michael Miranda would hang out at was a bar owned by Tommy Eboli’s father. Is there any evidence to suggest Eboli’s father was connected or a member?

[B.]

The source is Carmine Taglialatela, East Harlem native who told the FBI he was made into the Vario decina. Fled to the West Coast due to a problem with Paul Vario.

[Antiliar]

This gives more info from what appears to be the same CI (Taglialatela):
http://documents.theblackvault.com/docu ... 308981.pdf

This write-up from LCN Bios gives some background:
https://lcnbios.blogspot.com/2019/07/bi ... nanti.html

[B.]

He makes some mistakes here and there but I've gotten a lot out of his cooperation over the years.

One thing that stood out is because he was an East Harlem guy being made with the Brooklyn Curiale-Vario crew, they had to contact the Lucchese captain Paulie Hamm in his original neighborhood before making him. We know sometimes Families include the borough/neighborhood a guy comes from on the proposed list so he can be checked out there. Can't think of other examples though where a Family actually sought out someone for approval due to jurisdictional crossover but it makes sense.

He also didn't know anything about Turridu Curiale (not even his name) despite having to meet with him before being made, but it's a rare reference to Curiale while he was still alive.

[PolackTony]

He makes some mistakes here and there but I've gotten a lot out of his cooperation over the years.

One thing that stood out is because he was an East Harlem guy being made with the Brooklyn Curiale-Vario crew, they had to contact the Lucchese captain Paulie Hamm in his original neighborhood before making him. We know sometimes Families include the borough/neighborhood a guy comes from on the proposed list so he can be checked out there. Can't think of other examples though where a Family actually sought out someone for approval due to jurisdictional crossover but it makes sense.

He also didn't know anything about Turridu Curiale (not even his name) despite having to meet with him before being made, but it's a rare reference to Curiale while he was still alive.

The checking in a with a guy’s boro/neighborhood sounds like it could be a vestige of the old rule of having to check a guy with his paese in Sicily before making him in the US.

[B.]

He makes some mistakes here and there but I've gotten a lot out of his cooperation over the years.

One thing that stood out is because he was an East Harlem guy being made with the Brooklyn Curiale-Vario crew, they had to contact the Lucchese captain Paulie Hamm in his original neighborhood before making him. We know sometimes Families include the borough/neighborhood a guy comes from on the proposed list so he can be checked out there. Can't think of other examples though where a Family actually sought out someone for approval due to jurisdictional crossover but it makes sense.

He also didn't know anything about Turridu Curiale (not even his name) despite having to meet with him before being made, but it's a rare reference to Curiale while he was still alive.

The checking in a with a guy’s boro/neighborhood sounds like it could be a vestige of the old rule of having to check a guy with his paese in Sicily before making him in the US.

Ding ding. When I first read the Morello letter where he discusses that rule (in fact, the breaking of the rule as early as 1902-1904) I immediately thought the same. We know the rule existed in some form in Sicily, as Buscetta said his name was circulated among different Families before he was made. In the early US this required contacting someone's paesans, Morello himself being consulted in this letter about a Corleonese in Chicago, but it is functionally the same thing as contacting his neighborhood/borough just an Americanized version.

The Asaro/Magaddino letter might be another instance of this. There was an inquiry about a guy who they thought may be Castellammarese but he was actually from Mazzara so the Castellammarese didn't need to be involved.

[thekiduknow]

Interesting he says that he met with Bill Bonanno after Joe disappeared, as they were in hiding for the few months after. Also Notaro being a Gambino member before Anastasia was killed is noteworthy. Not sure what to make of that, could have been a mistake but interesting nonetheless.

It might be more common than I thought, but I had only heard "La Stessa Nostra"(The Same Thing), used when Sicilian members were introduced to American members during the Pizza Connection. But, it makes sense that it would be used like Cosa Nostra when referring to what organization members belong to.

[PolackTony]

Interesting he says that he met with Bill Bonanno after Joe disappeared, as they were in hiding for the few months after. Also Notaro being a Gambino member before Anastasia was killed is noteworthy. Not sure what to make of that, could have been a mistake but interesting nonetheless.

It might be more common than I thought, but I had only heard "La Stessa Nostra"(The Same Thing), used when Sicilian members were introduced to American members during the Pizza Connection. But, it makes sense that it would be used like Cosa Nostra when referring to what organization members belong to.

I've seen it stated before that members in Sicily are introduced to each other as "stessa cosa", but I think this is the first time that I've seen it documented where it was being used within US families like that. Not that it should be surprising, of course, but still always enjoy seeing documented examples of how guys actually used terms related to the organization.

A more recent example that could be pointing to the same concept (members of the mafia are all "the same thing") could have come up in the 2005 recordings of Chicago member Rudy Fratto. When a guy who was having trouble with forklift contracts with some guys from Cleveland went to Fratto for help, Fratto told the guy to go back to Cleveland and tell the people he was having trouble with that he knew Fratto, and to tell them Fratto was "the same thing" as a redacted name in Cleveland (my guess would be Joe Loose Iacobacci). Not a formal introduction to other members, of course, but still perhaps a window into how members from different families saw each other.

[thekiduknow]

I've seen it stated before that members in Sicily are introduced to each other as "stessa cosa", but I think this is the first time that I've seen it documented where it was being used within US families like that. Not that it should be surprising, of course, but still always enjoy seeing documented examples of how guys actually used terms related to the organization.

I just looked in "Last Days of the Sicilians", and I got it mixed up. You're right in that it was Sicilians members who used that term, rather than Sicilian and American members using that term to introduce each other.

"Stessa Cosa" doesn't seem that different from "Cosa Nostra", both being used to refer to something that is nameless but understood among the members.

A more recent example that could be pointing to the same concept (members of the mafia are all "the same thing") could have come up in the 2005 recordings of Chicago member Rudy Fratto. When a guy who was having trouble with forklift contracts with some guys from Cleveland went to Fratto for help, Fratto told the guy to go back to Cleveland and tell the people he was having trouble with that he knew Fratto, and to tell them Fratto was "the same thing" as a redacted name in Cleveland (my guess would be Joe Loose Iacobacci). Not a formal introduction to other members, of course, but still perhaps a window into how members from different families saw each other.

I'm interested to know if the guy who was sent to Cleveland was a member or not. If he wasn't, I wonder if it was an intentional to use "Same Thing" rather than "Cosa Nostra"/"Our Thing". "Same thing" in this context seems like it could be used by an outside member, "I'm with Fratto, who is the same thing as you", vs "I'm with Fratto in cosa nostra/our thing". I could also be overthinking it.

I agree, its fascinating to see the different terms used to refer to something that is, again, essentially nameless.

[PolackTony]

I've seen it stated before that members in Sicily are introduced to each other as "stessa cosa", but I think this is the first time that I've seen it documented where it was being used within US families like that. Not that it should be surprising, of course, but still always enjoy seeing documented examples of how guys actually used terms related to the organization.

I just looked in "Last Days of the Sicilians", and I got it mixed up. You're right in that it was Sicilians members who used that term, rather than Sicilian and American members using that term to introduce each other.

"Stessa Cosa" doesn't seem that different from "Cosa Nostra", both being used to refer to something that is nameless but understood among the members.

A more recent example that could be pointing to the same concept (members of the mafia are all "the same thing") could have come up in the 2005 recordings of Chicago member Rudy Fratto. When a guy who was having trouble with forklift contracts with some guys from Cleveland went to Fratto for help, Fratto told the guy to go back to Cleveland and tell the people he was having trouble with that he knew Fratto, and to tell them Fratto was "the same thing" as a redacted name in Cleveland (my guess would be Joe Loose Iacobacci). Not a formal introduction to other members, of course, but still perhaps a window into how members from different families saw each other.

I'm interested to know if the guy who was sent to Cleveland was a member or not. If he wasn't, I wonder if it was an intentional to use "Same Thing" rather than "Cosa Nostra"/"Our Thing". "Same thing" in this context seems like it could be used by an outside member, "I'm with Fratto, who is the same thing as you", vs "I'm with Fratto in cosa nostra/our thing". I could also be overthinking it.

I agree, its fascinating to see the different terms used to refer to something that is, again, essentially nameless.

Yeah, “stessa cosa” and “cosa nostra” are basically invoking the same underlying concept; we are all part of this same nameless “thing”. “Cosa nostra”, which almost certainly started as a causal, euphemistic expression, over time became sort of fixed as a formal title (presumably in an interesting back and forth dialogue between members and outsiders in LE and the media; a similar process happened with “outfit” in Chicago).

Haven’t looked at the transcript for the Fratto thing recently. The guy in question was not a mafia member, but it’s still interesting as an example of how things are handled when a guy who is not a member appeals to a mafia member for interdiction in a problem. Fratto told him to go back to Cleveland and tell the guys there who were giving this guy problems that Fratto was the “same” as someone who they’d presumably both know and understand the status of. In the same conversation, Fratto also told this guy that he was the “boss” of Elmwood Park.

[The Greek]

Just found this file in Mary Ferrell and linked to the least redacted version. This CI, out of the San Francisco office, describes in detail Frank Cacciatore's induction into the Genovese Family in 1957 by an "old capo decina" named Pete Delsi. "Taddo Del" [Generoso Del Duca], another capodecina, was also there. Cacciatore and two others were sponsored by "Taddo De Marco." Then in 1958 the CI was inducted into the Lucchese Family. Then he discusses other names including "Sally Burns" Granello (who he says was under Phil Lombardo), Bill Bonanno, and John Montana, who he says was a boss.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... elPageId=1

Any idea who "the old man" baker was? Was it ever confirmed it was Charles Giampaolo? If so, is there any more info on him?

[B.]

Just found this file in Mary Ferrell and linked to the least redacted version. This CI, out of the San Francisco office, describes in detail Frank Cacciatore's induction into the Genovese Family in 1957 by an "old capo decina" named Pete Delsi. "Taddo Del" [Generoso Del Duca], another capodecina, was also there. Cacciatore and two others were sponsored by "Taddo De Marco." Then in 1958 the CI was inducted into the Lucchese Family. Then he discusses other names including "Sally Burns" Granello (who he says was under Phil Lombardo), Bill Bonanno, and John Montana, who he says was a boss.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... elPageId=1

Any idea who "the old man" baker was? Was it ever confirmed it was Charles Giampaolo? If so, is there any more info on him?

Almost certainly Salvatore Curiale