Federal Onslaught

[Pogo The Clown]

Read an interesting stat that 2,500 LCN members and associates were indicted across the country between 1983-1986. Imagine how exciting the forums would be if we were around back then to discuss it.


Pogo

[slimshady_007]

Jesus that’s a lot of guys. The mid 1980’s was when the government started getting serious about taking down lcn.

[Wiseguy]

Read an interesting stat that 2,500 LCN members and associates were indicted across the country between 1983-1986. Imagine how exciting the forums would be if we were around back then to discuss it.


Pogo

The bosses of most of the families in the country were indicted during the 1980s as well. People still underestimate how devastating that decade was to the LCN. It was the first time there was really a sustained, nationwide attack at the federal level (now with RICO of course). By the end of the decade, half the families in the country were essentially finished. Though, that was also due in no small part to attrition which had already begun to set in.

[aleksandrored]

The 80s and 90s were really the downfall of LCN, I think that for the Sicilian mafia, also seeing the huge publicity that Riina caused at that time, ironically it was the "height" of the visibility of the mafia, as well as its downfall.

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Read an interesting stat that 2,500 LCN members and associates were indicted across the country between 1983-1986. Imagine how exciting the forums would be if we were around back then to discuss it.


Pogo

Imagine the hyperbole, bullshit, ‘street guys’, gossip, exaggeration you’d have had.

The biggest thing I miss is back then they still clipped each other.

[StandUpGuy]

Read an interesting stat that 2,500 LCN members and associates were indicted across the country between 1983-1986. Imagine how exciting the forums would be if we were around back then to discuss it.


Pogo

Pretty impressive that the overwhelming majority of those didnt flip. Omerta was intact until the 90’s and 2000’s when the majority of rats flipped.

[cavita]

Of the 2500 indicted LCN members and associates I wonder what the number was of guys that were actually convicted and sentenced to prison versus just being indicted.

[Wiseguy]

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

The FBI still has that figure on their website.

There are approximately 900 members left in the U.S. Even if you just take the 700 or so New York members and a minimal 3:1 member-to-associate ratio, that's 2,800 right there.

[Confederate]

Read an interesting stat that 2,500 LCN members and associates were indicted across the country between 1983-1986. Imagine how exciting the forums would be if we were around back then to discuss it.


Pogo

Which corresponds to what I said in the other two KC/Cleveland "Fantasy" threads. After RICO took effect, the entire LCN changed & went downhill which means the "protocol" & all the romantic imagery "changed". It not only changed because of RICO, but also changed because of demographics & attrition. The LCN in 2020 is not the same LCN that existed in 1975. The system broke down quite a bit & the caliber of younger & middle age LCN members is much different. A 35 year old American LCN member today is not the same guy that a 35 year old LCN member was in 1975. The National Network of cooperating comradery has greatly diminished because of distrust and/or suspicion. There are no more national Commission meetings & never will be again. The RICO ACT not only put a lot of people in jail, they used the oldest weapon known in warfare which is "divide & conquer".

[TallGuy19]

The 80s and 90s were really the downfall of LCN, I think that for the Sicilian mafia, also seeing the huge publicity that Riina caused at that time, ironically it was the "height" of the visibility of the mafia, as well as its downfall.

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

I have read some estimates that say the Genovese family alone has 2,000–3,000 associates. I don't know how accurate that number is, and it also depends on your definition of associate, but I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that the average soldier could have 10–15 associates under them.

[Confederate]

The 80s and 90s were really the downfall of LCN, I think that for the Sicilian mafia, also seeing the huge publicity that Riina caused at that time, ironically it was the "height" of the visibility of the mafia, as well as its downfall.

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

I have read some estimates that say the Genovese family alone has 2,000–3,000 associates. I don't know how accurate that number is, and it also depends on your definition of associate, but I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that the average soldier could have 10–15 associates under them.

The ratio of associates actually "on record" with a made guy in New York was more like 4 to 1 according to what I have read. Anyway, it also depends like you said on how "liberal" a definition of the word "associate" means.

[Ivan]

The 80s and 90s were really the downfall of LCN, I think that for the Sicilian mafia, also seeing the huge publicity that Riina caused at that time, ironically it was the "height" of the visibility of the mafia, as well as its downfall.

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

I have read some estimates that say the Genovese family alone has 2,000–3,000 associates. I don't know how accurate that number is, and it also depends on your definition of associate, but I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that the average soldier could have 10–15 associates under them.

The ratio of associates actually "on record" with a made guy in New York was more like 4 to 1 according to what I have read. Anyway, it also depends like you said on how "liberal" a definition of the word "associate" means.

I imagine a lot of the "700 made guys" are also basically inactive as far as crime goes. I wouldn't be shocked if the ones with de facto "inactive" status number in the triple digits.

[Fughedaboutit]

Pre-80s they must have felt so invincible.

[Wiseguy]

The 80s and 90s were really the downfall of LCN, I think that for the Sicilian mafia, also seeing the huge publicity that Riina caused at that time, ironically it was the "height" of the visibility of the mafia, as well as its downfall.

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

I have read some estimates that say the Genovese family alone has 2,000–3,000 associates. I don't know how accurate that number is, and it also depends on your definition of associate, but I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that the average soldier could have 10–15 associates under them.

The ratio of associates actually "on record" with a made guy in New York was more like 4 to 1 according to what I have read. Anyway, it also depends like you said on how "liberal" a definition of the word "associate" means.

The max ratio you will ever see is the old 10 associates for every member. Yeah, if you loosen the definition of an associate enough, you may get that many but, besides just being lazy, it's likely too generous a ratio for any family today.

Each family can differ too and, as far as the FBI is concerned, the local SAC typically determines how many associates a family has. In 2004, Philadelphia, for example, was said to have about 100 associates (down from 250 in the 1980s). With a membership of about 50 at the time, that was a 2:1 ratio. In 2007, Chicago was said to have over 100 associates. With a membership of between 25 and 30 at the time, that was a 4:1 ratio.

For the New York families, Selwyn Raab often used to post figures showing a 5:1 ratio in the past. If that 3,000 members and associates for the entire U.S. figure is correct, New York would probably be closer to a 3:1 ratio today.

I've always taken associate estimates with a grain of salt, as they vary even among law enforcement. It's not like members where someone is made or they're not. But I do lean toward the more conservative estimates today.

[Confederate]

The 80s and 90s were really the downfall of LCN, I think that for the Sicilian mafia, also seeing the huge publicity that Riina caused at that time, ironically it was the "height" of the visibility of the mafia, as well as its downfall.

Interesting that I saw in a documentary that in 2011, according to the FBI, LCN still had 3,000 members and associates across the country, is there so many people associated with the mafia?

I have read some estimates that say the Genovese family alone has 2,000–3,000 associates. I don't know how accurate that number is, and it also depends on your definition of associate, but I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that the average soldier could have 10–15 associates under them.

The ratio of associates actually "on record" with a made guy in New York was more like 4 to 1 according to what I have read. Anyway, it also depends like you said on how "liberal" a definition of the word "associate" means.

The max ratio you will ever see is the old 10 associates for every member. Yeah, if you loosen the definition of an associate enough, you may get that many but, besides just being lazy, it's likely too generous a ratio for any family today.

Each family can differ too and, as far as the FBI is concerned, the local SAC typically determines how many associates a family has. In 2004, Philadelphia, for example, was said to have about 100 associates (down from 250 in the 1980s). With a membership of about 50 at the time, that was a 2:1 ratio. In 2007, Chicago was said to have over 100 associates. With a membership of between 25 and 30 at the time, that was a 4:1 ratio.

For the New York families, Selwyn Raab often used to post figures showing a 5:1 ratio in the past. If that 3,000 members and associates for the entire U.S. figure is correct, New York would probably be closer to a 3:1 ratio today.

I've always taken associate estimates with a grain of salt, as they vary even among law enforcement. It's not like members where someone is made or they're not. But I do lean toward the more conservative estimates today.

I multiplied 200 (made members) x 4 to equal 800 in my head. However, the ratio would have actually been 3 to 1 just like you stated which is
(200 made guys & 600 associates). I didn't know Philly's ratio was only 2 to 1? That's interesting. I wonder why their ratio was smaller? We both know why Chicago's ratio was higher.