Beliefs with no evidence

[sdeitche]

One more....

Benny Squint being the boss was the worst kept secret in the mafia. Everyone knew.

We don't have a lot of Genovese member sources from that era but Barone, Russo, and Cafaro all said Lombardo was the actual boss. They were all soldiers (though Russo and Cafaro were very close to the admin) so it doesn't seem to have been a total mystery. That said, outside of the Genovese Family it does seem contemporary FBI sources thought it was Tieri which was seemingly the point of the whole point

Are you talking post-Genovese death?

[B.]

One more....

Benny Squint being the boss was the worst kept secret in the mafia. Everyone knew.

We don't have a lot of Genovese member sources from that era but Barone, Russo, and Cafaro all said Lombardo was the actual boss. They were all soldiers (though Russo and Cafaro were very close to the admin) so it doesn't seem to have been a total mystery. That said, outside of the Genovese Family it does seem contemporary FBI sources thought it was Tieri which was seemingly the point of the whole point

Are you talking post-Genovese death?

Around mid-1970s through early 80s when it's debated whether Tieri or Lombardo was official boss.

See the part that I don't get is why include REGULAR people? Or conflate the two. Are you referring to a Geographic location, or the ACTUAL FAMILY. To me its a little like referring to the geographic area of Brooklyn, or the Lower East Side like a family. Like... Brooklynite isn't a mafia term. Imagine using it like it's a mafia reference.

The FBI chart that gets made for the purpose of identifying Sicilian MAFIA members present in NY is NOT going to include a bunch of regular people.

I don't get why you do that....

I remember someone asked.... " How many guys in the Gambino Sicilian faction..." ;The answer was something like 8. What if we include the entire extended community of residents with ancestry from the Passo Di Rigano area? THEN how many was it? I think the number of Torreta guys arrested connected to Francesco Gambino was over 30. If Passo Di Rigano, had what we refer to as a powerful faction in NY with 8 members, what the hell was Ciccio Gambinos crew? A whole FAMILY? I mean.....how big was it if they had that many guys in NY?

Think about it like this.......

Ernie Grillo pops up in Sicily again. This time he's with SEVERAL Americans. They've been there all year and haven't left, holding clandestine meetings and shit. They are up to no good. An Italian investigator ask...."What family is THIS one with?" . Imagine the reply being something like..." He's part of a network of Brooklynites".... It's like no bro. He's a Gambino.
He's a Luchesse. And their relatives in Brooklyn arnt going to be identified as being part of the family.

Or maybe I'm over thinking it?.....I dunno... I gave you my criteria for this stuff in a pm awhile back.....

That boss from Borgetto who got indicted for extortion? Of the regular people? Is he setting up a criminal extention of HIS parent borgata? Is he the Borgetto component of an integrated Sicilian mafia faction that has members spread out amongst the families, but still answerable to Sicily like we saw with someone like Riccardo Cefalu? Did he abdicate and join an American Family? Is he a rouge doing his own thing like that Palmeri guy?

The regular people never even enter my thought process....

You said you don't know what "Torrettesi" are so I was explaining it. I understand you're wondering about it in a mafia context but even in a mafia context "Torrettesi" includes not only members of multiple Families but associates and friends/relatives who are part of the mafia network.

There have been members of the Torretta Family operating in the US for decades and mafiosi from Torretta who belong to the Gambinos and Luccheses but they formally belong to NYC Families and take direction from them. Then there are associates and other people who are still very much part of the Torrettese mafia environment. However, they are all very involved with each other regardless of formal affiliation. The term "Torrettesi" itself has no formal significance, it only means these guys are all from Torretta.

Francesco Gambino was a member of the Torretta Family and some of his associates likely were as well but not all of them were made members. I don't know if he was a capodecina or just a member who had operational authority over an element of the Torretta Family operating in the US. The report Felice has referenced is vague and it's hard to infer anything formal from it beyond Ciccio Gambino being a de facto authority / point of contact for Torrettese mafiosi in the US, like Silvestro Davi today. Of course Sicilian mafiosi still must operate under the umbrella of local Families so Ciccio and his people would have been expected to defer to people like John Gambino.

With Vito Rappa from Borgetto, he is a member of the Borgetto Family living in the US and working in partnership with the Gambinos. So yes he belongs to the Borgetto Family and formally answers to them but he's also associating with Gambino members and operating under their direction given the rule is Sicilian members operate in the US as "guests" of the American Families.

[moneyman]

Sicillian vs Gotti faction narrative is something I push against

Cali came up under Jackie D"Amico who Mikey Scars has repeatedly said is the farthest thing from a Sicillian like member

John Gambino close with Leonardo Dimaria / Corrozzos

I think this narrative dies when Nino Inzerillo is killed

[johnny_scootch]

Sicillian vs Gotti faction narrative is something I push against

I think this narrative dies when Nino Inzerillo is killed

Castellano had Nino Inzerillo killed 5 years or so before Gotti became Boss. John Gambino set him up and Frankie DeCicco was the shooter.

[moneyman]

Sicillian vs Gotti faction narrative is something I push against

I think this narrative dies when Nino Inzerillo is killed

Castellano had Nino Inzerillo killed 5 years or so before Gotti became Boss. John Gambino set him up and Frankie DeCicco was the shooter.

Right - I'm moreso alluding to the fact that any "siciillian faction" acting independent from Gambino leadership dies when Nino is killed

[Brovelli]

You agree a Sicilian faction still exists though? I agree on any anti-gotti or independent faction, wasn’t it gotti who made John gambino a captain which probably initiated that faction growing their influence. They probably did well under gotti so didn’t feel any hurt from Paul getting killed.

[CabriniGreen]

Sicillian vs Gotti faction narrative is something I push against

I think this narrative dies when Nino Inzerillo is killed

Castellano had Nino Inzerillo killed 5 years or so before Gotti became Boss. John Gambino set him up and Frankie DeCicco was the shooter.

Right - I'm moreso alluding to the fact that any "siciillian faction" acting independent from Gambino leadership dies when Nino is killed

I gotta say....no?

The New Connection arrest exist.
In fact, the actual crimes in the indictment from what I remember were kinda small?

The significance was the confirmed existence of the Inzerillos operating a family in exile.

Now here more beliefs with no proofs for you.....


As m2w pointed out.... it's been stated many times the Inzerillo have a fortune that wasn't seized, and that this business structure had a lot to do with them being allowed back into Sicily. I think it possible that they inherited what was left of the American end of the Pizza Connection businesses, contacts, networks, and logistics structure that were not touched. Riina and his guys in Sicily wouldn't be in a position to really do anything about it. I find it very compelling almost all the visiting Sicilians, no matter the family felt obliged to check in with Cali.

As far as Cali, it's his Inzerillo connection that matters in Sicily.

[moneyman]

Definetly Sicillian lineage US born members and Sicillian mafia connected members operating in US .. guys like Ernie Grillo, Davì, Rappa, Cefalu etc the list goes on

I just dont think there is or was a major conflict between "sicillian" vs "gotti" factions.. at least after Nino was killed.. but I dont have hard evidence to support that belief and it's a popular media narrtive

[moneyman]

Would be interested to reread Bill Bonnano's book... I seem to remember alot of "beliefs with no evidence" in his book but remember thinking some of those might have credibility/actually be legit .. e.g. the consing was usually the acting boss

[CabriniGreen]

Definetly Sicillian lineage US born members and Sicillian mafia connected members operating in US .. guys like Ernie Grillo, Davì, Rappa, Cefalu etc the list goes on

I just dont think there is or was a major conflict between "sicillian" vs "gotti" factions.. at least after Nino was killed.. but I dont have hard evidence to support that belief and it's a popular media narrtive

Is it even really a narrative though? I thought it was just a devious ploy by Chin. Like...... did Gotti ever have a bad beef with the Sicilian guys? I think that's some internet shit....

I'm sure Gambino was irritated when Gotti hit Castellano because he wasn't consulted 1st. It affected his business. This was in Felice's " Some info about the Gambinos" thread. Look at the reaction from Sicily when Cali got hit, they were just short of hysteria. I can't remember if he did, but I don't think Gotti consulted the Sicilians. He probably saw them as too close to Paul.

Ive heard the Americans vs Sicilians narrative. But this Gotti vs the Sicilians..... I think it comes from Gotti hating Carlo.

[johnny_scootch]

Gotti hated Carlo? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

[B.]

There were FBI sources who reported the Sicilians took issue with the Castellano murder (one theory about the DeCicco bombing is that the Sicilians were involved, which we know now was untrue) but I've never seen anything substantial about a Gotti vs. Sicilians narrative. The Sicilian faction are diehard Cosa Nostra and likely understood that the boss is the boss, similar to John Gambino and most of the guys obeying Castellano's command to not involve themselves in the Palermo war and killing Nino Inzerillo for not listening.

[CabriniGreen]

Gotti hated Carlo? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

You never saw the transcripts where he calls Carlo a rat fucker? A back door mutherfucker?

[CabriniGreen]

There were FBI sources who reported the Sicilians took issue with the Castellano murder (one theory about the DeCicco bombing is that the Sicilians were involved, which we know now was untrue) but I've never seen anything substantial about a Gotti vs. Sicilians narrative. The Sicilian faction are diehard Cosa Nostra and likely understood that the boss is the boss, similar to John Gambino and most of the guys obeying Castellano's command to not involve themselves in the Palermo war and killing Nino Inzerillo for not listening.

The order to kill Nino came from Sicily. What's the famous phrase..." Either you kill him...or we will".

[B.]

Paul Castellano ordered his members not to get involved in the war, Nino Inzerillo got involved in the war, so Castellano ordered both American and Sicilian Gambino members to kill him. That was Castellano's decision.