The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

[NickleCity]

Wiseguy, why bother?

Point taken. I had a feeling this would get turned into another Buffalo thread.

You are the one turning it into the Buffalo thread. You use your interpretation of the Buffalo data set as an example to prove your conclusion ...

My questions:
Should those who disagree with your analysis of the data just keep it to themselves so as not to turn a thread into a Buffalo thread?
Should they be belittled “Why Bother” to keep them from expressing their view and interpretation of the data? The “why bother” comment has at its heart - they are just too dumb to understand.

Why should your interpretation not be challenged?

Do you think that only you and those who agree with you should control the narrative?

To the question why bother?

I bother because a fairly new poster asked a question, I think that poster should get everyone’s take on this issue and make their own informed opinion. That is why I’ve challenged your take.

I bother because I believe people should have all the information and not just the selective data you share. And yes, your data is selective. Here is one example: We have a long history of mob associate and federal informant Ron Fino’s take on the Buffalo mob. His takes all cluster around the mob in Buffalo being active. Yet, you take his one comment that is an outlier and anomaly in the data set and make it primary to support your opinion.

I bother because I believe underestimating the mob’s influence in Buffalo is more dangerous than overestimating it. If LE says it doesn’t exist or isn’t influential enough to dedicate resources to… than this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the eyes of LE— cause if they are not looking for it they won’t find it. Then all of a sudden its influence grows and more people are hurt by it. This was the take of mob controlled US Attorney and NYS Attorny General Dennis Vacco who pushed LE and to quit focusing on IOC and focus on street gangs. I’ve documented this in the Buffalo thread if you care to look for my sources.

I bother because I know people who have lost everything betting with mob connected associates.

I bother because I know people who medicate the pain of their gambling losses with narcotics trafficked by the mob and connected OMC’s.

I bother because I’ve watched a mob connected crew meet at a local restaurant on a weekly basis and reported that to LE.

I bother because I’ve watched the leader of that crew regularly meet with 2 individuals that the FBI and HSI told me were “decision makers” in the Buffalo mob.

I bother because I’ve heard these “decision makers” asking each other if they can trust the “new guys” in Canada.

I could keep going on why I bother, but I will leave it there.

I should acknowledge that those on this site that believe there is no place for personal experience in these boards.

Why do you bother?

To me it appears your only concern is convincing people that you are right and because you are right everyone on these boards must utilize your narrow datasets and interpretive lenses in order to protect this site from people like me who will turn it into the next GBB. …Oh but wait a minute… is that your personal experience guiding your interpretive process? LOL… At least I admit my experience is part of my dataset and interpretive processes…

[Wiseguy]

You are the one turning it into the Buffalo thread. You use your interpretation of the Buffalo data set as an example to prove your conclusion ...

I didn't post until page 3 but I turned it into a Buffalo thread?

Should they be belittled “Why Bother” to keep them from expressing their view and interpretation of the data? The “why bother” comment has at its heart - they are just too dumb to understand.

The reason for lack of understanding varies person to person. Some simply misinterpret the evidence. Others are more emotionally invested, getting some satisfaction out of there still being a mob family in Buffalo and elsewhere.

Why should your interpretation not be challenged?

I didn't say that, though you'd think after enough years of what people like Pogo and myself saying have proven true, the challenges would become less frequent.

Do you think that only you and those who agree with you should control the narrative?

My objection isn't about "narrative" but about a thread that was much larger in scope getting stuck in the Buffalo weeds again.

I bother because a fairly new poster asked a question, I think that poster should get everyone’s take on this issue and make their own informed opinion. That is why I’ve challenged your take

The "take" by those like yourself is why some were surprised the FBI did away with its OC squad in New England, and why some people think there's still dozens of members in Detroit, and why some theorized there could still be making ceremonies involving the LA family.

I bother because I believe people should have all the information and not just the selective data you share. And yes, your data is selective. Here is one example: We have a long history of mob associate and federal informant Ron Fino’s take on the Buffalo mob. His takes all cluster around the mob in Buffalo being active. Yet, you take his one comment that is an outlier and anomaly in the data set and make it primary to support your opinion.

Fino is hardly primary in my support of the facts. I no longer take him seriously on this issue and would be fine never quoting him again.

I bother because I believe underestimating the mob’s influence in Buffalo is more dangerous than overestimating it. If LE says it doesn’t exist or isn’t influential enough to dedicate resources to… than this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the eyes of LE— cause if they are not looking for it they won’t find it. Then all of a sudden its influence grows and more people are hurt by it. This was the take of mob controlled US Attorney and NYS Attorny General Dennis Vacco who pushed LE and to quit focusing on IOC and focus on street gangs. I’ve documented this in the Buffalo thread if you care to look for my sources.

I bother because I know people who have lost everything betting with mob connected associates.

I bother because I know people who medicate the pain of their gambling losses with narcotics trafficked by the mob and connected OMC’s.

I bother because I’ve watched a mob connected crew meet at a local restaurant on a weekly basis and reported that to LE.

I bother because I’ve watched the leader of that crew regularly meet with 2 individuals that the FBI and HSI told me were “decision makers” in the Buffalo mob.

I bother because I’ve heard these “decision makers” asking each other if they can trust the “new guys” in Canada.

I could keep going on why I bother, but I will leave it there.

This why your posts were recently compared to the Unabomber.

To me it appears your only concern is convincing people that you are right and because you are right everyone on these boards must utilize your narrow datasets and interpretive lenses in order to protect this site from people like me who will turn it into the next GBB. …Oh but wait a minute… is that your personal experience guiding your interpretive process? LOL… At least I admit my experience is part of my dataset and interpretive processes…

My concern is dealing in reality. Studying the mob, especially present day, as it really is. Some things are not open to interpretation. And no, any serious student of the subject wouldn't want this board to be like GBB. Or the Real Deal circa 2008. But left to those like yourself, NyEmpire/Rooster, etc, it would be.

[CabriniGreen]

As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

I don't know about global geopolitical power....lol

National.......in a limited capacity...maybe. The carribean...Cuba?

[CabriniGreen]

I'll again try to synthesize some of the points, because I've seen good ones from folks on different sides.

Is it possible that one family of the ~30 was able to go "full Corleone" and quietly slip into the world of legitimate business, while maintaining a semblance of illicit strength and Syndicate traditions? I suppose.
E
And given the previously large numbers of families, one could argue the odds are that ONE has fooled everyone and still exists, while carefully not making any waves with law enforcement.

Of all the families, I agree that Buffalo is probably the best candidate for this.

But the odds of this are slim. Because the mob is NOT just "Italian American families who used to be in crime and now have legit enterprises." An evolved creature is not the previous creature -- it's a new one altogether.

To become a Stealth Family like this hypothetical, one would need to do things like eschew large numbers of soldiers, to the point where the organization is so small, it's hard to claim it's "Organized Crime."

I got a new ebook on Kindle for my Christmas reading called "Mafia Mistaken: Why Everything You Think You Know About Italian American Organized Crime is Wrong" and the author makes this exact point.

I'm probably not going to do the point justice, but he says something like: Everything that exists must have a definition. A seal is not a chicken, and so on. And the mob is defined as a large, organized organization of Italian American criminals engaged in complicated (not petty) racketeering, with a clear hierarchy and structure, that involves paying up the chain of command in exchange for political and judicial protection. (And is bound by omerta, etc.)

For a family like Buffalo to fool everyone that they don't exist any more, they would need to be small, not large. Casual, ad hoc, informal, and opportunistic -- versus regularly engaged in complicated racketeering.

In other words, they would lose several things that compose the very essence of what it means to be Organized Crime.

Let's say you're the boss of one of these families. I'll make your initials JT for illustration purposes only. You are technically made, but your focus is legitimate businesses. Now some supplier screws you over. In the old days, you would send an associate to give him a clear message: you don't mess with me. This, indeed, is your competitive advantage!! Nowadays, you don't (can't!) really do that. You ask yourself, "is the risk worth it?" You decide instead to have your lawyer send him a letter.

If you're not acting like OC -- are you OC?

I'm not saying it's impossible that a family could have gone into Dark Mode.

I'm just saying that we may perhaps a new term for these small wisps of families -- because without a vast structure of soldiers, without omerta (gone everywhere), without complicated rackets, and without special relationships with cops and judges, they're really just hyperlocal, diversified clans of Italian Americans who might have criminal pasts or small criminal interests.

And to address another point here: I don't fault folks for having nostalgia. I don't think those folks are glorifying OC. I understand that the mob is infinitely more interesting than other crime phenomena -- and in its odd way, was "better" than the cartels are, in modern times.

But I think if we're honest, it seems like the mob is NOT nationwide anymore, and thus the Kefauver definition "a sinister national syndicate / conspiracy . . ." is long gone.

I dont agree on the " complicated rackets" part.

Edit: I might challenge you on clear hierarchy as well.....

[johnny_scootch]

A largely retired, nominal boss. A Canadian drug trafficker who was bumped up to underboss not long after being made (which should tell you something). A captain in Hamilton with one known member under him. And then a half-dozen old, inactive guys in Buffalo.

Leaving the argument about who’s ‘largely retired’ or ‘inactive’ aside what you’re saying is proving my point. I’m not saying they’re a big powerful family, I’m just saying they exist.

Boss, Underboss, at least one captain and several soldiers is what we know exist. Leave the fact that there are always guys we don’t know about aside and there’s the Buffalo family. Severely weakened shell of its former self but it exists.

When does it cease to exist? When the last member dies?

No I don’t see it that way either but imo a family that doesn’t exist isn’t still promoting members to admin posts, making new members, actively trying to recruit new members, networking and in communication with other families and things along those lines.

[Newyorkempire]

Amazing the hypocrisy, but it's the new normal with fake news reporters (and cops)

[NickleCity]

You are the one turning it into the Buffalo thread. You use your interpretation of the Buffalo data set as an example to prove your conclusion ...

I didn't post until page 3 but I turned it into a Buffalo thread?

This is inaccurate and typical of what you do. You and Pogo both posted using Buffalo in your comments on page 1 before I responded to Pogo later on the page and asked Pogo a question.

Pogo responded to my questions and I thanked him for his response on page 3.

I would have been happy to leave it there except he responded to the newer Blackhand Forum member and author of this thread with a repost of one of your posts on Buffalo. Then you add to what Pogo has quoted you as saying about Buffalo.

On p. 4. I simple responded to Pogo's post so the author and newer member would have access to an alternative point of view on the subject and you can't let that be and respond to me. Anytime I respond to you, you can't let it be so you respond in what I can only believe is an attempt to control the narrative on this subject.

So I was wrong it was you and Pogo that turned this into a Buffalo thread. Not just you. I am sorry Wiseguy.

[Coloboy]

@Wiseguy....

I only participate sparingly in a few threads, but I've gathered that your angle on most of the board is that the mafia is mostly dead, and any speculation as to the happenings of families are overblown and exaggerated.

Unlike other forums I've perused, it seems that most of the users on this site are pretty well balanced and academic in their analysis. No one (or no one that is taken seriously) seems to be indicating that LCN in America is some huge monolith, with even a fraction of the power that it once had. It has become a niche, small, criminal network, operating amongst hundreds and thousands of other criminal organizations in the country.

With that said, do you truly believe that the FBI has 100% insight into every aspect of a crime family? Again, Chicago is the only family I really know anything about, but you seem to really cling onto the "28" made members figure from family secrets. Do you believe that law enforcement was aware of and had identified every single living and active member of the Chicago Outfit on that list? Nick Calabrese, a long time made member (something that we know is taken very seriously in that city and doesn't come easy), couldn't even confidently identity not only the succession of bosses and admin members, but wasn't even sure who all the capos were across the city. That's how tight security was/is.

I agree with your assessment that Scott B's claim of Sarno making "20-30" new members, just into the Cicero crew alone, is insane. But it is absolutely reasonable to hypothesize that at least 8-12 new guys were brought into that crew alone, a good chunk of whom we now the names of.

It is not unreasonable to assume that a secret society, dedicated to profiting from crime, and committed to hiding it's inner workings, would bring in new people to continue that organization and continue to profit. It is not as simple as saying "they had 28 members, 13 have died, and now they have 15 members." There are certainly many members of LCN, Chicago and otherwise, who have been involved their whole life, and lived and died, without ever being identified as LCN by law enforcement or the public.

[PTown]

Unlike other forums I've perused, it seems that most of the users on this site are pretty well balanced and academic in their analysis.

With that said, do you truly believe that the FBI has 100% insight into every aspect of a crime family?

It is not unreasonable to assume that a secret society, dedicated to profiting from crime, and committed to hiding it's inner workings, would bring in new people to continue that organization and continue to profit. There are certainly many members of LCN, Chicago and otherwise, who have been involved their whole life, and lived and died, without ever being identified as LCN by law enforcement or the public.

Agree. Even with the differences of opinion, this is still a pretty civil site. And folks seem to know what they’re talking about, and try to back stuff up with evidence.

This is a valid point. And it’s one I’ve thought about a lot.

Do you think it’s possible to be a made member who never hits a law enforcement list?

I talk pros and cons:

In the “doubt it” side:

1. Some foolish families/bosses/captains implement “you must show up” policies. The Gambians at some point had a few of these. Those fools made it easy for law enforcement. All they needed to do was hang outside the social club where the rings were being kissed.

Could someone be a member and never really show his face around others?

2. 1/5 of the mob is either in prison or an informant. With so many informants, could someone fly beneath all radar?

On the “it’s possible” side:

1. The sheer numbers of families and bosses make me think SOMEONE somewhere had the brains to say “wow the Gotti way doesn’t work. Let’s go full opposite.”

2. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s hubris to assume otherwise.

How do I come down? I’d be curious if there are any examples of people where, after they died, a deathbed confession or an informant, or a member list, or something revealed John Q Businessman to have been a Made Man. Do we have any examples?

[cavita]

Unlike other forums I've perused, it seems that most of the users on this site are pretty well balanced and academic in their analysis.

With that said, do you truly believe that the FBI has 100% insight into every aspect of a crime family?

It is not unreasonable to assume that a secret society, dedicated to profiting from crime, and committed to hiding it's inner workings, would bring in new people to continue that organization and continue to profit. There are certainly many members of LCN, Chicago and otherwise, who have been involved their whole life, and lived and died, without ever being identified as LCN by law enforcement or the public.

Agree. Even with the differences of opinion, this is still a pretty civil site. And folks seem to know what they’re talking about, and try to back stuff up with evidence.

This is a valid point. And it’s one I’ve thought about a lot.

Do you think it’s possible to be a made member who never hits a law enforcement list?

I talk pros and cons:

In the “doubt it” side:

1. Some foolish families/bosses/captains implement “you must show up” policies. The Gambians at some point had a few of these. Those fools made it easy for law enforcement. All they needed to do was hang outside the social club where the rings were being kissed.

Could someone be a member and never really show his face around others?

2. 1/5 of the mob is either in prison or an informant. With so many informants, could someone fly beneath all radar?

On the “it’s possible” side:

1. The sheer numbers of families and bosses make me think SOMEONE somewhere had the brains to say “wow the Gotti way doesn’t work. Let’s go full opposite.”

2. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s hubris to assume otherwise.

How do I come down? I’d be curious if there are any examples of people where, after they died, a deathbed confession or an informant, or a member list, or something revealed John Q Businessman to have been a Made Man. Do we have any examples?

Closest I can think of is Salvatore Giglia of Boston who remained unknown to law enforcement from the 30s through the 80s

[PolackTony]

As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

I don't know about global geopolitical power....lol

National.......in a limited capacity...maybe. The carribean...Cuba?

During the Accardo and Giancana years, Chicago had some contacts related to gambling, hotels, and other activities with state elements in a number of countries, such as Mexico, DR, Panama, Brazil, Spain, Lebanon, and Iran. These things also get greatly exaggerated though. So far as I am aware it amounted to some partnerships with business interests in these countries and maybe some contact with intelligence services (e.g., Giancana-era links to DR caudillo Rafael Trujillo's lapdog Porfirio Rubirosa, aka "the Dominican James Bond") and politicians related to illegal rackets and legit business activities (e.g., slot machines in Spain, etc). The extent of "power" afforded by such ties, however, can be indexed by the fact that Giancana wound up getting his property expropriated when he was forcibly deported by the Mexican government.

[PTown]

I forget if I was the source of the "Global Geopolitical Power" line. The context was: to illustrate how far the mob has fallen. As in, before, it had global geopolitical power. Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders, mostly living within 75 miles of NYC.

Whether I was the source of the line or not, here is what was meant:

1. During WWII, the U.S. government, with the blessing of the highest in government, ASKED Lucky Luciano for help controlling subversive activities at the docks. Whether he could deliver (and how big the threat was) were both debatable. Nevertheless, the point is that the U.S. government -- generals and the Executive Branch -- asked for his help.

2. Vito Genovese was KNIGHTED by the King of Italy, into the super exclusive Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus. (OSSML). Imagine that.

3. After WWII, the U.S. government asked members of the mob to help introduce them to anti-fascists in Southern Italy.

4. During the Cold War, the CIA asked Johnny Roselli, et al, to assist with the assassination of Fidel Castro.

5. Right up through the mid-seventies, Carlo Gambino was so feared that U.S. presidents reportedly never went after him, because his control of the unions that keep America moving (dockworkers, teamsters, etc.) was so thorough, that he could shut the country down.

6. The drug trafficking operations of old often involved complex routes using contacts in Turkey, Corsica, Sicily, etc. Now it's all a lot simpler.

These are just 5-6 examples. Whether you discount 2-3 of them, I'd say it's safe to say the mob HAD genuine geopolitical power, and now it does not. That was the point. It' a pretty simple one.

[Wiseguy]

@Wiseguy....

I only participate sparingly in a few threads, but I've gathered that your angle on most of the board is that the mafia is mostly dead, and any speculation as to the happenings of families are overblown and exaggerated.

Unlike other forums I've perused, it seems that most of the users on this site are pretty well balanced and academic in their analysis. No one (or no one that is taken seriously) seems to be indicating that LCN in America is some huge monolith, with even a fraction of the power that it once had. It has become a niche, small, criminal network, operating amongst hundreds and thousands of other criminal organizations in the country.

With that said, do you truly believe that the FBI has 100% insight into every aspect of a crime family? Again, Chicago is the only family I really know anything about, but you seem to really cling onto the "28" made members figure from family secrets. Do you believe that law enforcement was aware of and had identified every single living and active member of the Chicago Outfit on that list? Nick Calabrese, a long time made member (something that we know is taken very seriously in that city and doesn't come easy), couldn't even confidently identity not only the succession of bosses and admin members, but wasn't even sure who all the capos were across the city. That's how tight security was/is.

I agree with your assessment that Scott B's claim of Sarno making "20-30" new members, just into the Cicero crew alone, is insane. But it is absolutely reasonable to hypothesize that at least 8-12 new guys were brought into that crew alone, a good chunk of whom we now the names of.

It is not unreasonable to assume that a secret society, dedicated to profiting from crime, and committed to hiding it's inner workings, would bring in new people to continue that organization and continue to profit. It is not as simple as saying "they had 28 members, 13 have died, and now they have 15 members." There are certainly many members of LCN, Chicago and otherwise, who have been involved their whole life, and lived and died, without ever being identified as LCN by law enforcement or the public.

During the 1980s, three FBI reports had the Outfit ranging from 42-51 made members. In 1999, the FBI reportedly had 47 members. Since then, 33 members have died. In 2007, the FBI had the Outfit at 28 members and since then 14 have died. There being 12-15 members left, which is what we can identify, tracks with the FBI figures over the last 40 years. I'm not interested in theoretical, "could be" ghost members. Furthermore, this decrease in Outfit membership tracks with there being only a few crews left. Even if there are some members flying under the radar, it's likely not enough to make any real difference to the overall state of the Outfit.

As for the LCN as a whole, I simply go with what the evidence over the past 25 years shows. The LCN remains a significant presence in the New York metropolitan area, where the five largest families and 80% of the national membership are. There are a handful of small, weak families on their last legs elsewhere.

[Coloboy]

I forget if I was the source of the "Global Geopolitical Power" line. The context was: to illustrate how far the mob has fallen. As in, before, it had global geopolitical power. Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders, mostly living within 75 miles of NYC.

Whether I was the source of the line or not, here is what was meant:

1. During WWII, the U.S. government, with the blessing of the highest in government, ASKED Lucky Luciano for help controlling subversive activities at the docks. Whether he could deliver (and how big the threat was) were both debatable. Nevertheless, the point is that the U.S. government -- generals and the Executive Branch -- asked for his help.

2. Vito Genovese was KNIGHTED by the King of Italy, into the super exclusive Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus. (OSSML). Imagine that.

3. After WWII, the U.S. government asked members of the mob to help introduce them to anti-fascists in Southern Italy.

4. During the Cold War, the CIA asked Johnny Roselli, et al, to assist with the assassination of Fidel Castro.

5. Right up through the mid-seventies, Carlo Gambino was so feared that U.S. presidents reportedly never went after him, because his control of the unions that keep America moving (dockworkers, teamsters, etc.) was so thorough, that he could shut the country down.

6. The drug trafficking operations of old often involved complex routes using contacts in Turkey, Corsica, Sicily, etc. Now it's all a lot simpler.

These are just 5-6 examples. Whether you discount 2-3 of them, I'd say it's safe to say the mob HAD genuine geopolitical power, and now it does not. That was the point. It' a pretty simple one.

I would argue that at its height, the power nationally was fairly substantial. The influence and sometimes outright control of national labor unions was a huge deal, all in an era where unions were incredibly important.In the major cities, they absolutely influenced both smaller elections (alderman in Chicago, council members in NYC) to larger ones (mayors). Whether the outfit actually influenced the Kennedy election is a matter of debate, but it is interesting to discuss.

My sense of why Bobby Kennedy ended up going after them so hard was that once he had access to the justice department in his brothers administration, he became alarmed and taken aback by the actual influence/power of the mafia nationally. At that time, most people thought of it as a regional crime phenomenon focused on local things like gambling and loansharking. When he realized the weight they carried across the country, as well as how organized they were (Commisssion), I think he viewed it as a legitimate threat to democracy and felt he needed to dismantle it.

That’s all to say I agree with your points

[Ivan]

Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders

I think there actually might be more high school grads and college degree holders involved now than there ever have been. Was a bunch of middle and high school dropouts in its golden age.