Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Confederate]

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe Violi (because of the wiretap) or whether you believe the fact that the Feds haven't confirmed there is a Buffalo Family still in existence either on the Canadian side or U.S. side. That's the bottom line.
But the big question would be what have these 30 guys been doing for the last 10 years? Also, it's possible that Violi is a big exaggerating bullshitter. Too bad it wasn't some OTHER Buffalo guy saying on a wiretap that Violi was named underboss out of 30 guys.

[Lupara]

In fact you are one of the few on the opposing side now. Before it was only nickel, lupara, and a few others that took the buffalo idea seriously, and they were often rediculed. Now there's alot more evidence and your just a holdout.

Before these wiretaps I didn't disagree with LE's statements on the Buffalo mob, but these wiretaps, and its existance confirmed by Capeci, holds a lot of merit and can certainly change our perspective.

Personally I believe LE had been able to neutralize families such as Buffalo and are certainly keen to down-play any left-over activity because they have other priorities now. They may very well be keen that Todaro and others are mostly legitimate but are still to an extend involved in Mafia politics.

I believe the FBI is capable of completely annihilating the NY families if they really wanted to but they are content with the status quo they have accomplished. It seems that as long as the mob refrains from controlling unions and industries (which poses the largest threat to society) and large scale drug trafficking they can live with remaining rackets such as gambling and loan sharking. If they take down the families completely, other criminal will simply fill the void as crime itself will never cease to exist. It's better to have it organized and controlled by some families than fragmented chaos which also leads to more violence.

I think this may be the case for Buffalo as well with LE's efforts having them neutralized to the point they are no longer posing a threat and establishing a status quo. Based on this and the fact they now have other priorities it would be in their interest to state that there is no more Buffalo mob.

[Wiseguy]

Lastly, where is this idea coming from that the Canadian side of the family has all this activity and strength? There's been a single bust.

Straight from those wiretaps. Violi being named underboss and saying he was chosen over 30 other members. Unless he was for some reason lying that means that power has shifted across the border given that Todaro and other remaining members in Buffalo are keeping a low profile to avoid LE scrutiny and the fact that never before was a Canadian given such a rank in a US crime family.

If 30 is indeed an accurate number, that's obviously on both sides of the border. But most of the members are probably on the U.S. side. And we really haven't seen any significant, sustained activity from either faction. You can't say, "The Canadian faction of the family is so active" simply because of the OTremens bust and the wiretaps. Heck, in terms of what relatively few cases there have been over the last 10 or 20 years, the U.S. side has more. OTremens was simply the latest.

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe Violi (because of the wiretap) or whether you believe the fact that the Feds haven't confirmed there is a Buffalo Family still in existence either on the Canadian side or U.S. side. That's the bottom line.
But the big question would be what have these 30 guys been doing for the last 10 years? Also, it's possible that Violi is a big exaggerating bullshitter. Too bad it wasn't some OTHER Buffalo guy saying on a wiretap that Violi was named underboss out of 30 guys.

I actually don't think they're mutually exclusive. I have no problem believing Violi is the underboss. Todaro being the boss, at least nominally, is very surprising but not impossible. While 30 members is possible, especially if they've made several members as of late (which we have little evidence of but many seem to think is the case), I don't necessarily take that figure at face value.

The difference is I think there's a lot more form than substance here. I don't think some guys being made and a bust necessarily equates to the Buffalo family undergoing a resurgence. At least to the point where we are going to continue to see significant, ongoing cases. We may see continue to see some minor stuff, here and there, as we have over the past 20 years. But nothing close to what many here think they're going to see.

[Confederate]

Lastly, where is this idea coming from that the Canadian side of the family has all this activity and strength? There's been a single bust.

Straight from those wiretaps. Violi being named underboss and saying he was chosen over 30 other members. Unless he was for some reason lying that means that power has shifted across the border given that Todaro and other remaining members in Buffalo are keeping a low profile to avoid LE scrutiny and the fact that never before was a Canadian given such a rank in a US crime family.

If 30 is indeed an accurate number, that's obviously on both sides of the border. But most of the members are probably on the U.S. side. And we really haven't seen any significant, sustained activity from either faction. You can't say, "The Canadian faction of the family is so active" simply because of the OTremens bust and the wiretaps. Heck, in terms of what relatively few cases there have been over the last 10 or 20 years, the U.S. side has more. OTremens was simply the latest.

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe Violi (because of the wiretap) or whether you believe the fact that the Feds haven't confirmed there is a Buffalo Family still in existence either on the Canadian side or U.S. side. That's the bottom line.
But the big question would be what have these 30 guys been doing for the last 10 years? Also, it's possible that Violi is a big exaggerating bullshitter. Too bad it wasn't some OTHER Buffalo guy saying on a wiretap that Violi was named underboss out of 30 guys.

I actually don't think they're mutually exclusive. I have no problem believing Violi is the underboss. Todaro being the boss, at least nominally, is very surprising but not impossible. While 30 members is possible, especially if they've made several members as of late (which we have little evidence of but many seem to think is the case), I don't necessarily take that figure at face value.

The difference is I think there's a lot more form than substance here. I don't think some guys being made and a bust necessarily equates to the Buffalo family undergoing a resurgence. At least to the point where we are going to continue to see significant, ongoing cases. We may see continue to see some minor stuff, here and there, as we have over the past 20 years. But nothing close to what many here think they're going to see.

I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. I agree. My big question is: What have all these guys been doing for the last 10 years?? I mean, are these guys so smart that they have been operating and the Feds don't know it? lol Why would the Feds NOT say there is a small Buffalo Family if it were true? I mean they have said there are still the New York 5, New England, Philly, New Jersey & Chicago and SOME have mentioned Detroit. Why would the Feds NOT mention Buffalo?? Something is not quite right but I guess time will tell.

[Angelo Santino]

Wiseguy:

I actually don't think they're mutually exclusive. I have no problem believing Violi is the underboss. Todaro being the boss, at least nominally, is very surprising but not impossible. While 30 members is possible, especially if they've made several members as of late (which we have little evidence of but many seem to think is the case), I don't necessarily take that figure at face value.

The difference is I think there's a lot more form than substance here. I don't think some guys being made and a bust necessarily equates to the Buffalo family undergoing a resurgence. At least to the point where we are going to continue to see significant, ongoing cases. We may see continue to see some minor stuff, here and there, as we have over the past 20 years. But nothing close to what many here think they're going to see.

There's a difference between a family having a structure and a family undergoing a resurgence. I don't think anyone is saying/arguing/introducing the idea that Buffalo is the new 6th Family growing exponentially. But why can't it be similar to Philadelphia in the early 90's where they formed an entire new hierarchy but definitely were not undergoing a resurgence? (My own opinion, if the 30 number is accurate I bet half of them are retired and the organization is anemic but that just goes with the Lake Erie Families that never had super-crews like NYC. Buffalo, CL, PB and Detroit were quality over quantity with political exceptions.)

Fact is, we have made members identifying a boss, an under, a captain and a membership approximately at 30. It's passed every "viability" test that you and Pogo use as a science. This doesn't take anything away from either of you, you guys follow the facts. Well here are some more facts: we have a viable hierarchy with what appears to be little activity streetwise (what other family does that remind me of?)

Lastly, the speculation that "Buffalo" has activity in Canada stems from the general idea that if the majority of your activities are somewhere, you want someone strong overseeing it. Drawing back to Phila, in 1990 South Philly was wiped out and most of the activity came out of Newark, which is probably why Pasquale Martirano was promoted to Under.

Again, I love you guys, but please have an a salut, NO ONE is saying that the Buffalo Family is the New Superfamily, only that from credible intel that it's not entirely dead if it has a boss, under and capo anymore than Philadelphia was with its bookmakers and pizza shop employees in the 90's.

C'mon. Olive branch fellas.

[Bklyn21]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 1164666635

[Bklyn21]

In the above article it states that 3 of the 5 NYC families were aware and notified of Violi becoming underboss with lines of communication flowing from Mikey Nose and John porky Zancocchio reaching out to many Buffalo mobsters of the promotion

[Moscone65]

I can agree with that, it makes sense.

[Pogo The Clown]

There's a difference between a family having a structure and a family undergoing a resurgence. I don't think anyone is saying/arguing/introducing the idea that Buffalo is the new 6th Family growing exponentially. But why can't it be similar to Philadelphia in the early 90's where they formed an entire new hierarchy but definitely were not undergoing a resurgence? (My own opinion, if the 30 number is accurate I bet half of them are retired and the organization is anemic but that just goes with the Lake Erie Families that never had super-crews like NYC. Buffalo, CL, PB and Detroit were quality over quantity with political exceptions.)

Fact is, we have made members identifying a boss, an under, a captain and a membership approximately at 30. It's passed every "viability" test that you and Pogo use as a science. This doesn't take anything away from either of you, you guys follow the facts. Well here are some more facts: we have a viable hierarchy with what appears to be little activity streetwise (what other family does that remind me of?)

Lastly, the speculation that "Buffalo" has activity in Canada stems from the general idea that if the majority of your activities are somewhere, you want someone strong overseeing it. Drawing back to Phila, in 1990 South Philly was wiped out and most of the activity came out of Newark, which is probably why Pasquale Martirano was promoted to Under.

Again, I love you guys, but please have an a salut, NO ONE is saying that the Buffalo Family is the New Superfamily, only that from credible intel that it's not entirely dead if it has a boss, under and capo anymore than Philadelphia was with its bookmakers and pizza shop employees in the 90's.

C'mon. Olive branch fellas.

That Humphrey article talked about a Buffalo resurgence and some people did carry that mantle (though not everyone of course).

For the Philly comparisons keep in mind that as decimated and disorganized as they were in the immediate post Scarfo era the FBI still considered them a powerful family (as posted by Wiseguy up top) and never once considered them finished like they have consistently done with Buffalo.


Pogo

[antimafia]

The good ole Jilly Scibetta impostor, a staple of these types of forums for many years, weighs in.

94D1CFFD-24A7-4DC1-AFD1-1A5663EB243F.jpeg

[Wiseguy]

There's a difference between a family having a structure and a family undergoing a resurgence. I don't think anyone is saying/arguing/introducing the idea that Buffalo is the new 6th Family growing exponentially. But why can't it be similar to Philadelphia in the early 90's where they formed an entire new hierarchy but definitely were not undergoing a resurgence?

Well, Philadelphia has always remained a viable family and has never been written off by the feds.

(My own opinion, if the 30 number is accurate I bet half of them are retired and the organization is anemic but that just goes with the Lake Erie Families that never had super-crews like NYC. Buffalo, CL, PB and Detroit were quality over quantity with political exceptions.)

Agreed.

Fact is, we have made members identifying a boss, an under, a captain and a membership approximately at 30. It's passed every "viability" test that you and Pogo use as a science. This doesn't take anything away from either of you, you guys follow the facts. Well here are some more facts: we have a viable hierarchy with what appears to be little activity streetwise (what other family does that remind me of?)

I'm not sure it has passed every viability test.

Obviously you're making the comparison to Detroit above. I think both families are comparable in that they weren't among those families ready to be "crossed off," but also not among those considered "powerful" by the feds, in the early 1990s. Both Buffalo and Detroit had enough steam in them to get through the 1990s.

Since then, we've seen Detroit on some lists of remaining families. And, now we have info from Canadian law enforcement about at least some semblance of a hierarchy in Buffalo. So there is that.

But both have had sporadic, inconsistent, activity over a lengthy period of time. Even if both have some semblance of a hierarchy (the enterprise part of RICO), they are quite deficient in the pattern of racketeering part.

Such could meet what you describe above - an anemic organization where most of the members are retired. And it would fit B's theoretical model of what constitutes a Mafia family. But that model has not been reflective of crime families in the real world in quite some time.

Lastly, the speculation that "Buffalo" has activity in Canada stems from the general idea that if the majority of your activities are somewhere, you want someone strong overseeing it. Drawing back to Phila, in 1990 South Philly was wiped out and most of the activity came out of Newark, which is probably why Pasquale Martirano was promoted to Under.

Again, this is where I think you guys are jumping the gun and arriving at conclusions that the OTremens bust and the wiretaps don't warrant. Who says most of the membership or activity is in Canada? Even if they've made more members than Violi recently, and those new members are all in Canada (all of which is hypothetical), the bulk of the membership is still on the U.S. side of the border. And, as I pointed out before, if you go back several years, what relatively little activity we've seen has mostly been on the U.S. side of the border as well. If OTremens was, or will be, one of several Buffalo related busts north of the border, you'd have a point. But right now, it's only that one bust that happens to be the most recent.

Again, I love you guys, but please have an a salut, NO ONE is saying that the Buffalo Family is the New Superfamily, only that from credible intel that it's not entirely dead if it has a boss, under and capo anymore than Philadelphia was with its bookmakers and pizza shop employees in the 90's.

Sorry CC but, compared to Buffalo, Philadelphia has been a juggernaut over the past 20 years. Philly has had consistent, ongoing indictments that have included a boss, acting boss, 2 acting underbosses, an acting consigliere, 6 captains, about a dozen soldiers, and a host of associates. We've also seen the murders of one member and 3 associates, as well as the woundings of a few other associates. And yet, Philadelphia is considered one of the small remaining families outside New York. What does that say about Buffalo?

C'mon. Olive branch fellas.

I do think arguing in circles is futile beyond a certain point. As I said, I'm content to let time show whether the OTremens bust and wiretaps amount to anything else or not.

[bosslt]

I think the fact that Violi got made underboss two years after being made really tells all you need to know about the viability of the Buffalo family.

[CabriniGreen]

That actually doesnt say much... plenty of guys have shot up the ranks...... From say, soldier to admin pretty fast.

Depends on who you are close to...

[Moscone65]

I think the fact that Violi got made underboss two years after being made really tells all you need to know about the viability of the Buffalo family.

Why? He is of age, probably has a lot of sway in Hamilton, he's got his own guys, and they need someone on that side of the border to manage things there. Who else would be more qualified for the job? Sure he was only made in the Buffalo family 2 years before, but surely the has had a large mafia family pedigree, and who knows if he was also made as a 'ndranghetisti.

[Moscone65]

It's not as bad as Ralph Natale going from associate to made then immediately boss. Lightning rod or not, he was still "boss".