Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Wiseguy]

The part of the website you quoted, was just one section under the Italian organized crime section. What about the part regarding labor unions?

It's important to put that in the correct context. The FBI website is speaking in a general (and not necessarily current) sense, i.e. the vast majority of mob labor racketeering has traditionally been in big cities, of which Buffalo was one.

Anyone familiar with the history of organized crime in Buffalo knows that was Laborers Local 210, which was put under oversight in 1996 and declared free of mob influence in 2006.

End of story.

[Hailbritain]

This is boadering on the ridiculous now . How much evidence does one need ???

[Moscone65]

I have to disagree with you wiseguy,
"Labor law violations occur primarily in large cities with both a strong industrial base and strong labor unions, like New York, Buffalo, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia. These cities also have a large presence of organized crime figures."
That seems to be in the present tense to me. (Occur not occured) (have a large presence, not HAD.).

[Moscone65]

If you are saying that the FBI can't get their info straight are being sloppy, therefore their word is not certain, and you/Pogo are contradicting yourselves if you take the FBIs word sometimes but not always.

[Wiseguy]

This is boadering on the ridiculous now . How much evidence does one need ???

Looking at all the evidence so far, which you're not doing, a lot more than one bust and some comments on a wiretap.

I have to disagree with you wiseguy,
"Labor law violations occur primarily in large cities with both a strong industrial base and strong labor unions, like New York, Buffalo, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia. These cities also have a large presence of organized crime figures."
That seems to be in the present tense to me. (Occur not occured) (have a large presence, not HAD.).

You're reading into it what you want. And you apparently don't read up on the modern day mob. Can you even tell me when the last mob labor racketeering bust in Buffalo was (Local 91 doesn't count)? And Buffalo hasn't been considered to have a large amount of mob figures in years. Notice how that sentence also says Cleveland, which literally has only a few members left. Again, proper context.

If you are saying that the FBI can't get their info straight are being sloppy, therefore their word is not certain, and you/Pogo are contradicting yourselves if you take the FBIs word sometimes but not always.

The FBI's info has been consistent. It's your reading comprehension, and lack of understanding about the state of the mob today, that's the problem.

[Moscone65]

Woah pal, no need to get defensive, I am reading bit literally, reading it all word for word. This ain't a fiction book were reading, it ain't supposed to have personal interpretation. If that was the case we could think whatever the heck we want. The fact that you seem to be getting upset and insulting my reading comprehension further proves my point that your trying to feel the fire for an argument that seems to be losing its spark.

[Moscone65]

In fact you are one of the few on the opposing side now. Before it was only nickel, lupara, and a few others that took the buffalo idea seriously, and they were often rediculed. Now there's alot more evidence and your just a holdout.

[Wiseguy]

Woah pal, no need to get defensive, I am reading bit literally, reading it all word for word. This ain't a fiction book were reading, it ain't supposed to have personal interpretation. If that was the case we could think whatever the heck we want. The fact that you seem to be getting upset and insulting my reading comprehension further proves my point that your trying to feel the fire for an argument that seems to be losing its spark.

Even if you want to throw read that part literally, you're ignoring the other part that Pogo posted that lists the remaining families. Buffalo is not among them.

As Pogo said, this is just the latest case of people on the forums latching onto something in order to argue that a family still exists. The same reasons are used, recycled, and used again. Only the city changes.

Pogo and myself have a very good track record because we go with what the feds say. It's others who don't that have proven wrong over and over again. All you who declaring there's still an active family in Buffalo, if it's just on the Canadian side of the border, can believe what you want. I'm more than content to let time prove us right again.

[cdc]

This is an interesting one.

IF what is reported to be on these wiretaps is true, that is a assumption that can be made but will need confirming, then there are a few details to review.

1. They have promoted someone to be undeboss.
2. It was directed by a known high ranking member of buffalo LCN who is now claimed to be boss.
3. This decision was report3d to 3 of the 5 families in NYC
4. The underboss had direct involvement with one of the NYC families via presence at a making ceremony.
5. They have made and appointed a new captain for the Hamilton area and have attempted to recruit more members.

Now if it is true and you have the boss making someone who is obviously very criminally active in 2015 and then promoting him to underboss a few years later then there is clearly a certain level of functionally either ongoing or trying to be established. The further making and promoting to capo of another criminally active person in Hamilton would also indicate an attempt to implement structure/management. To compound this you also have them supposedly reaching out to 3 heads of the 5 families. To do this there has to be a level of association with these families. It’s not like they just driven to nyc and have knocked on some doors and said btw this guys the new underboss. Clearly , certainly with th Bonnanos, there is an ongoing association with these crime families. Now there have been certain guys like D’elia who had dealings with other families as a made member but not really as a amber of a family but it’s not like he was ever reporting news of his Organisation with them, just personal business dealings. This would very much indicate that buffalo lcn family, as a business enterprise, is active.

What has to be considered though is that Todaro would have had contacts in with ppl in the five families from many years ago, when he was active, and would not have necessarily been active recently to have the ability to reach out to them. He has been very quiet and from the outside looked to be retired for many many years. It could well be the case that the buffalo lcn was effectively dead and only recently there has been a push to re establish its functionality. That would mean that the fbi has been right in insisting there was no viable Organisation previously but that had changed. If you see how they were actively trying to recruit new members then it would corroborate this.

It could well be that this short lived revival attempt is over with violi’s Bust and the attention chasing Todaro back to the shadows. Pogo and wiseguy could be 100% right in saying that there is no family and still isn’t but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t an attempt to. There clearly was if these reports are true.

Sorry for the ramble. Just my opinion anyway.

[Wiseguy]

I posted this excerpt from a 1992 Washington Post article a while back.


"The federal government's hit list for the Mafia once included nearly 20 cities, but officials say they are close to crossing off Cleveland; Denver; Los Angeles; New Orleans; Pittston, Pa.; Rochester, N.Y.; San Francisco; San Jose; St. Louis and Tampa. 'We still have powerful La Cosa Nostra families in New York City, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston and south Florida,' said Paul Coffey, who heads the Justice Department's organized crime division."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 13bfe6ea91



First, they list 10 families that they're close to "crossing off" as far back as 1992.

Second, the ones they referred to as "powerful" are the same 9 families we've seen listed over and over again in other articles, reports etc. as still being around - the 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago. Not to be confused, since they listed Tampa as one of the crossed off ones, when they say "South Florida" they were talking about the presence of the NY families there.

So who was left out? Obviously places like Dallas, Madison, and so on weren't even a factor at that point. The families not ready to be "crossed off" but not listed among those still considered "powerful" were Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Kansas City. In hindsight, considering there hasn't been any mob activity there since the mid-1980s, Milwaukee should have been among the crossed off ones. But the other four families were in a grey area and, indeed, we saw more activity from them throughout the 1990s. But that was then.

This is an interesting one.

IF what is reported to be on these wiretaps is true, that is a assumption that can be made but will need confirming, then there are a few details to review.

1. They have promoted someone to be undeboss.
2. It was directed by a known high ranking member of buffalo LCN who is now claimed to be boss.
3. This decision was report3d to 3 of the 5 families in NYC
4. The underboss had direct involvement with one of the NYC families via presence at a making ceremony.
5. They have made and appointed a new captain for the Hamilton area and have attempted to recruit more members.

Now if it is true and you have the boss making someone who is obviously very criminally active in 2015 and then promoting him to underboss a few years later then there is clearly a certain level of functionally either ongoing or trying to be established. The further making and promoting to capo of another criminally active person in Hamilton would also indicate an attempt to implement structure/management. To compound this you also have them supposedly reaching out to 3 heads of the 5 families. To do this there has to be a level of association with these families. It’s not like they just driven to nyc and have knocked on some doors and said btw this guys the new underboss. Clearly , certainly with th Bonnanos, there is an ongoing association with these crime families. Now there have been certain guys like D’elia who had dealings with other families as a made member but not really as a amber of a family but it’s not like he was ever reporting news of his Organisation with them, just personal business dealings. This would very much indicate that buffalo lcn family, as a business enterprise, is active.

What has to be considered though is that Todaro would have had contacts in with ppl in the five families from many years ago, when he was active, and would not have necessarily been active recently to have the ability to reach out to them. He has been very quiet and from the outside looked to be retired for many many years. It could well be the case that the buffalo lcn was effectively dead and only recently there has been a push to re establish its functionality. That would mean that the fbi has been right in insisting there was no viable Organisation previously but that had changed. If you see how they were actively trying to recruit new members then it would corroborate this.

It could well be that this short lived revival attempt is over with violi’s Bust and the attention chasing Todaro back to the shadows. Pogo and wiseguy could be 100% right in saying that there is no family and still isn’t but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t an attempt to. There clearly was if these reports are true.

Sorry for the ramble. Just my opinion anyway.

As I said before, while I'm usually not one to get into the prediction game, I'm willing to bet this is going to going to be much like the New Orleans mob case in 1994 or the Tampa mob case in 2000. At both points, you technically still had guys in leadership positions in those families. Both were in contact and working with the New York families. But the feds had written both off. And, sure enough, both cases proved to be anomalies.

I'm predicting this will be the same with the OTremens case. It's an anomoly. There may be some guys in certain positions but neither the 2017 or the wiretaps we read about this week will prove to be an early sign of a resurgent, robust and active family. And people who are expecting that will be disappointed.

[cdc]

One difference here though is that you clearly have organizational issues here. The New Orleans bust was an interesting one as it involved members from gambino, 1 New Orleans member and 2 Tampa members were unindicted co conspirators. But it essentially was gambino guys working in NO. There was never carolla discussing making new members or reporting promotions to the 5 families. I think that is a key difference here in this case vs other busts of guys just in the rackets. You have actual Organisation issues here. It does change things.

Not saying you are wrong btw. Just think it’s an important distinction.

[Wiseguy]

One difference here though is that you clearly have organizational issues here. The New Orleans bust was an interesting one as it involved members from gambino, 1 New Orleans member and 2 Tampa members were unindicted co conspirators. But it essentially was gambino guys working in NO. There was never carolla discussing making new members or reporting promotions to the 5 families. I think that is a key difference here in this case vs other busts of guys just in the rackets. You have actual Organisation issues here. It does change things.

Not saying you are wrong btw. Just think it’s an important distinction.

See any similarities here?

October 2000 - 19 people, including Tampa LCN captain Steve Raffa and soldier John Mamone, were indicted in Florida on charges of racketeering, gambling, loan sharking, obstruction of justice, fraud and money laundering through check cashing stores.


November 2017 - 14 people, including reported underboss Domenico Violi, were indicted in Canada on charges of drug trafficking, contraband cigarettes, weapons trafficking, sports bookmaking and video poker machines.



Ad far as organizational issues, we've got Todaro (who's at least the nominal boss) in Buffalo. The recently made and indicted underboss (Violi) In Canada. Also a captain (Luppino) there. Who makes up the rest of the hierarchy?

Furthermore, before Violi's comment about beating out 30 other guys for the promotion to underboss, it had last been reported there were 20 members left at most. Whether it's 20 or 30 members, whether they're on the US or Canadian side of the border, what have these guys been doing this whole time? And if/when we dont see ongoing activity going forward, what are we to think then?

[cdc]

Sorry I’m probably not making my point clear. I’m saying the difference is that here we have buffalo actively making a new underboss and then a captain and reporting these promotions , at least Violi to UB, to New York. The Raffa indictment had him as a capo (although he was always a funny one in terms of his position) and mamone as a soldier yes but it never came out through the indictment or any wiretaps that there was trafficante organizational matters.

Regarding the consigliere and what they have been up to all these years? These are valid questions. What does it say about a family that someone made in 2015 is underboss by 2017!

[Lupara]

Lastly, where is this idea coming from that the Canadian side of the family has all this activity and strength? There's been a single bust.

Straight from those wiretaps. Violi being named underboss and saying he was chosen over 30 other members. Unless he was for some reason lying that means that power has shifted across the border given that Todaro and other remaining members in Buffalo are keeping a low profile to avoid LE scrutiny and the fact that never before was a Canadian given such a rank in a US crime family.

[Pogo The Clown]

One difference here though is that you clearly have organizational issues here. The New Orleans bust was an interesting one as it involved members from gambino, 1 New Orleans member and 2 Tampa members were unindicted co conspirators. But it essentially was gambino guys working in NO. There was never carolla discussing making new members or reporting promotions to the 5 families. I think that is a key difference here in this case vs other busts of guys just in the rackets. You have actual Organisation issues here. It does change things.

Not saying you are wrong btw. Just think it’s an important distinction.

Actually I believe there were 5 NO members in that bust. Boss Anthony Carollo, UnderBoss Frank Gagliano, Joe Marcello, Sebastian Salvatore and Joe Gagliano. Given his age Joe Gaglaino was likely made recently to that bust. But really they were pretty much the last active remnants of the family.


Similar to this Buffalo case was the Rochester case in 2000. You had Tommy Marotta refering to himself as the Boss, inducting a new member (informant Anthony Delmonti) and referencing another active member "Joe T" (likely Rochester member Joseph Triesti). In addition Marotta drug trafficking operation had ties to NYC and Delmonti had dealings with made members in Cleveland like Joe Iacobacci (who a few years previously was IDed by the Feds as "Acting Boss" of Cleveland). But it to was just the last remnants.


Pogo