Los Angeles odds & ends

[Antiliar]

I don't think they ever got close to that. The city of LA was just too big and they were always too small to really wield that sort of power on the streets.


Pogo

But Bugsy and Cohen did wield that kind of power, and their crew was never big.

Did Siegel and Cohen really have that much power? I mean, do keep in mind that Dragna and his crew were systematically eliminating Cohen's associates and nothing ever came of it.

Yeah that is correct. They had their slice of the pie but were never "the power" as evidenced by what you said.

Jasper Matranga was in Adamo's crew, and DiMaria and Dragna were in Joe Dip's crew. Cascio wasn't a member. Locicero wasn't made until later.

I have no idea about Cascio but from what Ed wrote it sounds like Piscopo identified him as a member. Thanks for the other info.

Piscopo said Thomas Palermo had never been a particularly active member of the crime family. His brother-in-law and fellow member John Cascio owned a winery that was sometimes used for meetings and initiation ceremonies.

http://mafiahistory.us/rattrap/salvatorepiscopo.html

"COSCIO [sic], while not a member of the Los Angeles brugad..."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 9&tab=page

I linked to the same FBI document in my article.

But five years later, in 1968, Piscopo stated Cascio was a member(or at the very least, the FBI said Piscopo said Cascio was a member.) So I went with the latest info regarding his membership. (Of course, maybe Piscopo was correct in 1963 and wrong in 1968.)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 4&tab=page

(T-6 is Piscopo)

I should have included the second link in the article to be clearer. I can see where a reader, if he checked the endnote, would be confused. Sometimes when I edit articles I cut endnotes that I think at the time are extraneous but in hindsight are not. I hope no one feels I tried to mislead them.

My article was about what Piscopo told the FBI, but at the time I was writing, I was probably influenced by a 1977 report from the Organized Crime & Criminal Intelligence Branch of the California Department of Justice that also states Cascio was a member.

As an aside, here are Cascio's details from the 1977 report.

John Cascio

AKA: John Collura, Mike Calder
DOB: 3-1-04 Palermo, Sicily
PHY: 5'5 150# Brown eyes, Grey hair
CII: 32 844
FBI: 184009
CDL: V345891
LKA: 9421 Stokes Ave, Downey, CA
OCC: Winery Owner

Cascio allegedly immigrated to US from Sicily in 1925. He bought the Big Tree Winery in 1947. The winery was doing $900,000 in sales annually by 1971.

Cascio was arrested in 1928 for possession of a still. Charge was dismissed. The report indicates he was alive in 1977 but it isn't always accurate.

Pogo, thanks for linking to my article.

Antiliar, thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Ed, I always appreciate your work. Yes, I was only referring to 1963. I would guess that Nick Licata made him after he replaced Desimone.

[Costigan]

Good points all around. Though with the last part, these guys are prone to so much backbiting it is hard to say how it all worked out in reality.

Did Fratianno say Brooklier sent Longo and Sciortino to Detroit to spread word about Fratianno? Had Fratianno misrepresented himself to Detroit or were they just keeping them in the loop on LA politics? I appreciate you refreshing me on all of this.

After Brooklier was out of prison and back in charge, Jimmy Fratianno went to Cleveland to see Tony Dope Delsanter and James Licavoli. They told him that Brooklier had sent Dom Longo and Sam Sciortino to Detroit to say that Jimmy had been going around the country misrepresenting himself. Detroit had sent two men (Carlo Licata & Jack Tocco) to Cleveland to notify them of Jimmy's wrong doings.
The thing is, when Jimmy got his acting boss license, he visited Cleveland, Chicago, and New York, hobnobbing with all the mob big shots. I don't think he ever went to Detroit, so I wonder why Brooklier was so keen to tell that family about Jimmy's supposed transgressions?

[IrishDave]

That's a great article on Dago Louie Piscopo. I thought this particular paragraph on LT Dragna was interesting. Seems like it wasn't only Jimmy Fratianno who resented him...

Former consigliere, Tom Dragna, lived in Las Vegas. Dragna had fallen out of favor with the new leadership and was mostly retired. [55] Piscopo said that "resentment" had built up among members during the last few years of Jack Dragna's time as boss as it became apparent that Jack and Tom Dragna were "grooming" Tom's son Louis Tom Dragna for "leadership" in the crime family. [56] This didn't sit well with other members because Louis Tom Dragna had never "proved" himself. Piscopo said he "had no particular abilities." [57] After Jack Dragna died in 1956, the resentment spilled out into the open and the new leadership decided to hold a "trial" for Tom Dragna and his son. They were found guilty and were sentenced to death. According to Piscopo, only the intervention of New York crime boss Thomas Lucchese saved their lives. According to Piscopo, Desimone and Licata were still concerned about Louis Tom Dragna's ambitions into the 1960s. Joseph Dippolito, Dragna's caporegime, was under instructions to keep on an eye on him and to report back any suspicious activity.

Copied from: http://mafiahistory.us/rattrap/salvatorepiscopo.html

The article also included a photo of the oft mentioned Tommy Palermo. I don't think I ever saw it before. Thanks Ed.

Are there any other reports about "trials" in other families? Or would this just be considered a "sit down"?

[B.]

Good points all around. Though with the last part, these guys are prone to so much backbiting it is hard to say how it all worked out in reality.

Did Fratianno say Brooklier sent Longo and Sciortino to Detroit to spread word about Fratianno? Had Fratianno misrepresented himself to Detroit or were they just keeping them in the loop on LA politics? I appreciate you refreshing me on all of this.

After Brooklier was out of prison and back in charge, Jimmy Fratianno went to Cleveland to see Tony Dope Delsanter and James Licavoli. They told him that Brooklier had sent Dom Longo and Sam Sciortino to Detroit to say that Jimmy had been going around the country misrepresenting himself. Detroit had sent two men (Carlo Licata & Jack Tocco) to Cleveland to notify them of Jimmy's wrong doings.
The thing is, when Jimmy got his acting boss license, he visited Cleveland, Chicago, and New York, hobnobbing with all the mob big shots. I don't think he ever went to Detroit, so I wonder why Brooklier was so keen to tell that family about Jimmy's supposed transgressions?

National protocol. A ranking member of the Los Angeles family had behaved dishonorably and misrepresented himself and his organization. Brooklier was obligated to tell other organizations in the network, even though Fratianno didn't meet with them.

I know I'm a broken record on here and people can mock me, but there was a process for these things that dates back to the 1800s. We saw similar discussions take place in letters between capo dei capi Morello and other US bosses in the early 1900s (posted here by CC) -- those letters have nothing to do with the boss of bosses making bold declarations about taking over rackets, they're about what's going on in mafia politics around the country, the minutiae of a local boss's authority, and the process of checking a proposed member's references. They even mention leaders making transgressions.

Not suggesting the network was as tight in late 1970s LA and Detroit as it was when these groups were formed, but what they were doing is what they had done for generations. Brooklier's actions weren't random.

Thanks for the info -- getting a lot from this thread.

[Costigan]

Thanks for the info -- getting a lot from this thread.

Thank You, you are a fount of information.

Not suggesting the network was as tight in late 1970s LA and Detroit as it was when these groups were formed, but what they were doing is what they had done for generations. Brooklier's actions weren't random.

Agreed. Actually, the network was still going strong in the 70s it would seem, at least from Fratianno's book. You get this picture of LCN as a nation wide conglomerate. Guys knew guys from coast to coast.

[Confederate]

Good points all around. Though with the last part, these guys are prone to so much backbiting it is hard to say how it all worked out in reality.

Did Fratianno say Brooklier sent Longo and Sciortino to Detroit to spread word about Fratianno? Had Fratianno misrepresented himself to Detroit or were they just keeping them in the loop on LA politics? I appreciate you refreshing me on all of this.

After Brooklier was out of prison and back in charge, Jimmy Fratianno went to Cleveland to see Tony Dope Delsanter and James Licavoli. They told him that Brooklier had sent Dom Longo and Sam Sciortino to Detroit to say that Jimmy had been going around the country misrepresenting himself. Detroit had sent two men (Carlo Licata & Jack Tocco) to Cleveland to notify them of Jimmy's wrong doings.
The thing is, when Jimmy got his acting boss license, he visited Cleveland, Chicago, and New York, hobnobbing with all the mob big shots. I don't think he ever went to Detroit, so I wonder why Brooklier was so keen to tell that family about Jimmy's supposed transgressions?

National protocol. A ranking member of the Los Angeles family had behaved dishonorably and misrepresented himself and his organization. Brooklier was obligated to tell other organizations in the network, even though Fratianno didn't meet with them.

I know I'm a broken record on here and people can mock me, but there was a process for these things that dates back to the 1800s. We saw similar discussions take place in letters between capo dei capi Morello and other US bosses in the early 1900s (posted here by CC) -- those letters have nothing to do with the boss of bosses making bold declarations about taking over rackets, they're about what's going on in mafia politics around the country, the minutiae of a local boss's authority, and the process of checking a proposed member's references. They even mention leaders making transgressions.

Not suggesting the network was as tight in late 1970s LA and Detroit as it was when these groups were formed, but what they were doing is what they had done for generations. Brooklier's actions weren't random.

Thanks for the info -- getting a lot from this thread.

Maybe this is why the L.A. Family never made any money & were almost useless. They spent most of their time flying all over the Country telling people (that Fratianno never even spoke to) about his transgression. They couldn't just tell Cleveland. Not saying it never happened, but it sounds ridiculous. I guess that's why they were called the "Mickey Mouse" Mafia.

[Costigan]

I guess that's why they were called the "Mickey Mouse" Mafia.

Actually in the 1980s police chief Darryl Gates called them that in the press and the name took off.

[B.]

Thanks for the info -- getting a lot from this thread.

Thank You, you are a fount of information.

Not suggesting the network was as tight in late 1970s LA and Detroit as it was when these groups were formed, but what they were doing is what they had done for generations. Brooklier's actions weren't random.

Agreed. Actually, the network was still going strong in the 70s it would seem, at least from Fratianno's book. You get this picture of LCN as a nation wide conglomerate. Guys knew guys from coast to coast.

They still do in some places, too.

That's why I posted the timeline showing Tommy Gambino's direct ties to high-ranking members in NYC and Sicily during the last 20 years, plus the couple recent references to California by mafia members. Tommy Gambino might not have murders under his belt, but beyond that his story is a continuation of what was happening among mafia immigrants 120 years ago -- use your ties to relatives/paesani to become a mafia member in another city.

It's not outlandish to imagine Tommy Gambino informed the NYC Gambino family about Milano's passing. Did they care? Maybe not, but his uncle and an in-law were on the admin of an NYC family at the time and in 2010 the same uncle, another uncle, and his Torretta paesano Mannino held an audience with the Philadelphia family to talk shop. If Tommy Gambino told them the news about Milano, it's not like they're going to say, "Get out of here with that defunct LA crap, little boy." They would have at least considered how they could use the situation to their advantage even if nothing came of it.

In the mid-2010s Joe Todaro sent word to New York asking whether it was okay to promote an underboss who lived in Canada. He did that for the same reason Brooklier sent emissaries to Detroit to tell them the acting underboss had lied about being the acting boss. It seems silly to us to send an official party to another part of the country to tell them an acting underboss lied about being an acting boss, just like to us outsiders it seems silly to for Buffalo to ask NYC permission to promote a Canadian to underboss. It's all the same process.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Did Siegel and Cohen really have that much power? I mean, do keep in mind that Dragna and his crew were systematically eliminating Cohen's associates and nothing ever came of it.

True. And this is the one legit argument against Bugsy, Mickey, and their east coast support being the real authority in LA. Dragna was obviously no pushover, at least not with Mickey. I believe only LA guys were involved with the attempts on Cohen's life. Have to believe if anyone in NY was behind it, he would have been done, alas Bugsy. I'm sure whoever got Bugsy from that long of range could have gotten Cohen. This tells me the east coast bosses decided to just let LA duke it out among themselves and they'd honor whoever won, which was pretty much no one.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Yeah that is correct. They had their slice of the pie but were never "the power" as evidenced by what you said.

I would say both Bugsy and Mickey had more than their slice of the pie, and that this was much to Dragna's dismay, as many accounts have attested to.

Let's say you're a bookie. You go to Los Angeles in the early 1950s and open shop without anyone's blessing. Who are you more worried about, Mickey Cohen or Jack Dragna?

[Pogo The Clown]

Neither of them were the power on the street which is what you were asking. They each had their piece of the pie but no one group controlled LA.


Pogo

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Neither of them were the power on the street which is what you were asking. They each had their piece of the pie but no one group controlled LA.


Pogo

Someone is always the power on the street.

Let me ask you this. Why did Bugsy and Cohen get into the LA rackets in the first place? Why did Chicago? Dragna was boss in the early 1930s, when Hollywood was in its infancy. Why did Chicago muscle in to Hollywood from the ground up but not Dragna?

[Pogo The Clown]

Because as I said the LCN family was too small and the city of LA too big for them to control it all. But no one group controlled it all. Each of them had their piece of the pie.


Pogo

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Because as I said the LCN family was too small and the city of LA too big for them to control it all. But no one group controlled it all. Each of them had their piece of the pie.


Pogo

Giving this the benefit of the doubt, would Chicago, Bugsy or Cohen have even needed the Dragna family's muscle to control LA? Seems they were just paying tribute to pacify Dragna and whatever east coast bosses vouched for him (probably Lucchese, considering they were in-laws or something like that), at least in the case of Bugsy and Chicago, whose liason to Dragna was Roselli. Cohen had zero respect for Dragna and refused to give him a red cent after Bugsy died. The elder Milanos of Clevelan's Mayfield Road mob were in LA at this time, too. Mickey was on record with them when he was sent to LA. Where did they stand in all of this?

[JoeCamel]

Here’s what Tommy Gambino’s up to:
https://www.nshoremag.com/eat-drink/gambino-prosecco/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rgIq_YzgDtw

Also still on linkdln as owner of telecommunications companies
Houses in Swampscott mass cause the wife’s from Lynn and LA.
Anyone recognize the dude with him in the video?
Almost 100% this is Rosarios kid...