What’s left of the mob nationally?

[Snakes]

I'd say the tiers are as follows:

Top tier activity/stability: Genovese, Gambino
Second tier: Lucchese, Bonanno
Third tier: Colombo
Fourth tier (large gap): Philly
Fifth tier: DeCavalcante
Sixth tier: (lowest activity and structure but still viable): Chicago, New England
Unknown/possibly defunct: Detroit
Probably defunct: Buffalo

[SonnyBlackstein]

Now the "I live here" card gets played. Haven't seen that one used in a while.

The FBI declining to comment card, instead of adhering to its previous ‘defunct’ line.
Have you seen that card before?

[SonnyBlackstein]

I'd say the tiers are as follows:

Top tier activity/stability: Genovese, Gambino
Second tier: Lucchese, Bonanno
Third tier: Colombo
Fourth tier (large gap): Philly
Fifth tier: DeCavalcante
Sixth tier: (lowest activity and structure but still viable): Chicago, New England
Unknown/possibly defunct: Detroit
Probably defunct: Buffalo

I’d put Luke’s on third with Colombos.
Or add an additional tier.
Bonanno’s notably larger.

[scagghiuni]

I'd say the tiers are as follows:

Top tier activity/stability: Genovese, Gambino
Second tier: Lucchese, Bonanno
Third tier: Colombo
Fourth tier (large gap): Philly
Fifth tier: DeCavalcante
Sixth tier: (lowest activity and structure but still viable): Chicago, New England
Unknown/possibly defunct: Detroit
Probably defunct: Buffalo

i think lucchese in third tier, new england in fifth and decavalcante and buffalo in sixth, detroit unknown

[Wiseguy]

To the point you make about the FBI, one quick comment. The FBI said the Buffalo family was dead in a March 2017 Buffalo News article. However, from Nov. 2017 forward their response to the new new information that started coming out after the Todaro family arrests in Canada has been, “We have no comment.” The most recently published being in the new article by Phil Fairbanks in the Buffalo News on April 19, 2019.

My question is this: If the FBI is still confident what they said in 2017 is still true, why not say that, or refer reporters to that comment?

IMHO the fact that they don’t stand by that comment says a lot without saying a thing.

It's a leap to say a "No comment" from the FBI means they've changed their view in the state of the Buffalo LCN. But I suppose hope springs eternal.

so violi lied in the wiretaps? i doubt it... the point is that buffalo is not active in the united states but it is in canada, that's why fbi said it was not viable

Honestly, given what we do know, I think it's as likely as anything that Violi made an off-the-cuff comment when he said he "beat out 30 other guys" for the underboss position, and shouldn't necessarily be taken at face value.

The wiretaps proved Buffalo are still active...

The wiretaps proved some members of the family were active.

It is already happening. Chicago has pretty much withered away. NE has withered away to the point where they are now essentially a Boston organization with remnants in Providence and nothing in Connecticut (the last Patriarca related bust in Conn was in 2005 and involved a member from Providence). From all accounts Philly has started to slow down. Same with activity in Florida. We are even seeing the Luccheses and Colombos starting to downsize in terms of the number of crews they can field.


Buffalo lives on on the Internet. The FBI hasn't recognized them for at least 15 years. The local prosecutors in Buffalo have recently said they are gone. Even the local Buffalo press looked into the supposed "Buffalo resurgence" talk and concluded there was nothing to it and it is still dead. What we have here is one made member being indicted in 17 years and people on the Internet running with it and turning it into something it's not.


Pogo

You summed it up when this debate all started about how this doesn't pass the smell test.

As you outlined above, it's important to look at general trends (the big picture) and not get hung up on one bust or one wiretapped conversation. And looking at Buffalo for the past 20 years, as well as the state of other families outside NYC the feds actually do recognize, tells us all we need to know.

The FBI - forever blindly ignorant, or fully blown idiots

The FBI has been proven right time and again for years on these forums. And those who think they can somehow read the tea leaves better have been proven wrong over and over again. But some never learn.

[TommyGambino]

Why are they promoting guys to underboss and capo then

[scagghiuni]

Why are they promoting guys to underboss and capo then

why they induct new members (the violi's were made members in 2015) if the family is dead lol

[Wiseguy]

I'd say the tiers are as follows:

Top tier activity/stability: Genovese, Gambino
Second tier: Lucchese, Bonanno
Third tier: Colombo
Fourth tier (large gap): Philly
Fifth tier: DeCavalcante
Sixth tier: (lowest activity and structure but still viable): Chicago, New England
Unknown/possibly defunct: Detroit
Probably defunct: Buffalo

I’d put Luke’s on third with Colombos.
Or add an additional tier.
Bonanno’s notably larger.

While the Colombos would be last of the 5 NY families, I'm not sure there is enough difference to say they are on a different "tier" than the Luccheses and Bonannos; like in the same way all three would be on a different tier from the Genovese and Gambinos. And the difference between the Luccheses and Bonannos is even more negligible.

Likewise, I'm not sure what criteria puts the remaining families outside New York on multiple tiers. Up until 2011, it could be argued New England was as active as any outside New York. Now it looks like the family is essentially a Boston operation. Philadelphia was down to a dozen active members on the street in the early 2000s but they seem to benefit from a surprisingly stable recruiting pool. Things fluctuate.

Why are they promoting guys to underboss and capo then

why they induct new members (the violi's were made members in 2015) if the family is dead lol

You guys have already been given examples where there have been new members made, and promotions given, in families that were basically defunct.

[Pogo The Clown]

Jesus are you guys really this dense? It has already been explained again and again that we have seen inductions and or promotions in places like Rochester, Cleveland, Scranton, New Orleans, Denver, SJ and LA after the organizations were basically considered defunct and were down to an active membership that you could count on one hand in most cases. You guys get so hung up on rank instead of looking at levels of activity which is the real measuring stick on whether there is still an organized functional criminal group operating in a particular city.


Pogo

[Snakes]

I'd say the tiers are as follows:

Top tier activity/stability: Genovese, Gambino
Second tier: Lucchese, Bonanno
Third tier: Colombo
Fourth tier (large gap): Philly
Fifth tier: DeCavalcante
Sixth tier: (lowest activity and structure but still viable): Chicago, New England
Unknown/possibly defunct: Detroit
Probably defunct: Buffalo

I’d put Luke’s on third with Colombos.
Or add an additional tier.
Bonanno’s notably larger.

While the Colombos would be last of the 5 NY families, I'm not sure there is enough difference to say they are on a different "tier" than the Luccheses and Bonannos; like in the same way all three would be on a different tier from the Genovese and Gambinos. And the difference between the Luccheses and Bonannos is even more negligible.

Likewise, I'm not sure what criteria puts the remaining families outside New York on multiple tiers. Up until 2011, it could be argued New England was as active as any outside New York. Now it looks like the family is essentially a Boston operation. Philadelphia was down to a dozen active members on the street in the early 2000s but they seem to benefit from a surprisingly stable recruiting pool. Things fluctuate.

I guess you could look at it in a different light, say, odds for when they would go defunct. The higher tier they are on the worse the odds that they will be the first family to go defunct. It was just an arbitrary system of ranking them.

[Confederate]

The FBI - forever blindly ignorant, or fully blown idiots

If the Feds know a lot of the inner workings of the New York 5, they would certainly know about little Buffalo. LOL
What would be the logical reason for the F.B.I. to purposely deny the existence of Buffalo being a functioning Family? I thought that ended over 60 years ago with that faggot named Hoover.

[Moscone65]

The FBI - forever blindly ignorant, or fully blown idiots

If the Feds know a lot of the inner workings of the New York 5, they would certainly know about little Buffalo. LOL
What would be the logical reason for the F.B.I. to purposely deny the existence of Buffalo being a functioning Family? I thought that ended over 60 years ago with that faggot named Hoover.

I don’t have a solid answer for that question to be honest with you. Then again, they are known to make mistakes. Who knows, maybe after the 2017 stuff they have been cooking something up, an investigation of sorts and that’s why they refuse to comment. They maybe thought they destroyed them, didn’t pay much attention while they slowly recovered and now realized that the organization was down but not out. Only time will tell I guess.

[NickleCity]

The FBI - forever blindly ignorant, or fully blown idiots

If the Feds know a lot of the inner workings of the New York 5, they would certainly know about little Buffalo. LOL
What would be the logical reason for the F.B.I. to purposely deny the existence of Buffalo being a functioning Family? I thought that ended over 60 years ago with that faggot named Hoover.

I don’t have a solid answer for that question to be honest with you. Then again, they are known to make mistakes. Who knows, maybe after the 2017 stuff they have been cooking something up, an investigation of sorts and that’s why they refuse to comment. They maybe thought they destroyed them, didn’t pay much attention while they slowly recovered and now realized that the organization was down but not out. Only time will tell I guess.

The FBI’s former position was the Buffalo mob is dead. Their current position is “No comment.”

Additionally, I would note that Agent Cohen who was in charge of the FBI’s Buffalo Field Office and made the comment that the Mob in Buffalo was dead in March 2017 was removed and replaced by Agent Gary A. Loeffert shortly after all the new information started to come out from Canada. Could be a coincidence, but the timing is interesting.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Jesus are you guys really this dense?

You could well be right, but your sanctimonious attitude at even a respectful discussion means if you’re wrong, and there is a chance you are, you’ll be eating those words.

There’s sufficient evidence to suggest Buffalo could be active or at the least make the argument. You don’t have to believe it but stop acting like a condescending asshole when people present legitimate arguments, ok?

[Confederate]

The FBI - forever blindly ignorant, or fully blown idiots

If the Feds know a lot of the inner workings of the New York 5, they would certainly know about little Buffalo. LOL
What would be the logical reason for the F.B.I. to purposely deny the existence of Buffalo being a functioning Family? I thought that ended over 60 years ago with that faggot named Hoover.

I don’t have a solid answer for that question to be honest with you. Then again, they are known to make mistakes. Who knows, maybe after the 2017 stuff they have been cooking something up, an investigation of sorts and that’s why they refuse to comment. They maybe thought they destroyed them, didn’t pay much attention while they slowly recovered and now realized that the organization was down but not out. Only time will tell I guess.

The FBI’s former position was the Buffalo mob is dead. Their current position is “No comment.”

Additionally, I would note that Agent Cohen who was in charge of the FBI’s Buffalo Field Office and made the comment that the Mob in Buffalo was dead in March 2017 was removed and replaced by Agent Gary A. Loeffert shortly after all the new information started to come out from Canada. Could be a coincidence, but the timing is interesting.

I think what you stated is a little misleading. The Buffalo Office never said "No Comment" as if they are working on some big case and can't talk about it. They simply have "Made No Comment". There is a difference. No?
Secondly, the new Agent who replaced Cohen stated their priorities and the Buffalo Mafia was never even mentioned. In contrast, when the new F.B.I. director in Chicago took over, he stated that putting the final nail in the Outfit's coffin was one of his priorities. See the difference?