The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

[NickleCity]

Synthesizing the above, it is possible to reconcile the positions.

Many outside of NY refer tend to think of the whole area as NY. We don’t distinguish. So if you read the FBI’s words as “NY state” versus “NYC”, it makes greater sense.

Also: some of their statements use a lot of qualifiers. “Remains a significant threat.”

Buffalo could exist; perhaps they didn’t consider it a significant threat.

Does anyone know when they gave a precise number of families left, which families they listed?

They have specifically said Buffalo is gone. Originally posted by Wiseguy.

Yes but these don't take into account context and new information.

Today, despite rumors that what was once the Magaddino family still operates here, federal organized crime investigators say those tales just aren’t true. They say small numbers of loosely associated individuals may still get together to commit what once were Mafia style crimes, but it’s not like the old days. - End of Organized Crime in Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Niagara Gazette, 2006

I posted about this Gazette article. It was written by an intern who relied heavily on Coppola for her information. He is likely the federal official she references.

“A 10-year, government-enforced cleanup of Local 210 ends today with the retirement of John J. "Jack" McDonnell as the union's court-appointed liaison officer. McDonnell, a former FBI special agent, gave the union a clean bill of health in a recent report to U.S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara. He said he believes the current leaders of the local are ready to run the operation themselves, with no government supervision.” - Local 210 Gets Clean Bill Of Health 10-Year, Government-Enforced Cleanup Of Union Ends Today With The Retirement Of Its Overseer, The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2006

Dan Herbeck has written extensively about the current probe into the Buffalo mafia. I will address that in a moment."

“There’s a few of the old-timers still around in Buffalo, but that’s about it,” one current federal inmate told the Niagara Falls Reporter. “There’s really nothing left to organize.” - Mob May Be Dead But Not Forgotten, Niagara Falls Reporter (Mike Hudson), 2012


"Even the most optimistic observers say the old Magaddino outfit has but 20 made guys left at most, and the majority of them have long since qualified for Social Security." - Who Will Lead Now That Todaro, Nicoletti Are Gone, Niagara Falls Reporter (Mike Hudson), 2013

These quotes come from the Niagara Fall Reporter that is on opinion paper were people would give money to have Hudson and others writes stories for them. Hudson has been accused of being a Todaro/Sansanese associate.

“Some of the individuals who were leaders of the Mafia are still around. But their organized crime activities don’t exist anymore. Some of them have legitimate businesses that we know of.” - Adam S. Cohen, SAC Buffalo FBI; The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017

“The Mafia, and the way of life that fostered the Mafia, is pretty much gone,” said Lee Coppola, 73, a former federal prosecutor and news reporter who grew up among mobsters and their families on Buffalo’s West Side. - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017


Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader. - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017

What is not mentioned in these quotes are the new articles that Herbeck and Micheal at the Buffalo News have written.

“There are a few remnants of the mob that still exist in Buffalo,” said Ronald Fino, a former union leader who helped the FBI investigate the local mob, “but it’s not the same.” - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017 (changed his tune in 2021)

I've documented and given evidence on the Buffalo thread that Fino has not changed his opinion and has consistently said the Buffalo mob exists before and after this article. Given the consistency of Fino's other statements before and after this... I question if this is correct or if what he said was accidentally taken out context. Here is a Fino's quote from 2021"

“The mob remains very active in Buffalo, but they’re a lot smarter than they used to be,” Fino told The News in early February. “They are less violent than they used to be. They make their money through fraudulent schemes. Now, they do their business through legitimate fronts.”

[quote}“Once we got them out of Local 210, that was the beginning of the end for the Buffalo mob,” said Andrew Goralski, a former Buffalo FBI agent who retired in 2007. “That was their power source in Buffalo.” - Andew Goralski, Former FBI - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017 [/quote]

Let me put some quotes from just a couple of Dan Herbeck's new articles:


Does organized crime in the form of a Mafia family exist in Buffalo?

Court documents and statements made by Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Tripi in court suggest “Italian Organized Crime” exists.

It takes the form of drug dealing, bribery, possessing weapons, telemarketing scams and other illegal activities, according to the government.

…

Today’s stories and others that will follow by Dan Herbeck and Lou Michel examine the government’s case and those who have been arrested. Looming in the background is a federal grand jury that has been hearing testimony.

—From Buffalo News’s Staff and Their Morning Compilation of Stories on February 28, 2021

After two decades as a Drug Enforcement Administration agent, Joseph Bongiovanni  found out what it was like to be the target of a criminal investigation at 6 a.m. on June 6, 2019.
He awoke with a start when a flash-bang grenade exploded inside his home. In his underwear, he rushed down the stairs, where a team of heavily armed federal agents, wearing military-style gear, broke down a door, stormed inside and pointed rifles at Bongiovanni’s head and at his wife and his teenage stepson.

“My first conscious thought was that an airplane had crashed very near my home because the sound was so loud,” said Bongiovanni, describing the hectic scene in court papers. 

Bongiovanni said an agent from Homeland Security began questioning him with these words: Tell us "all about the Mafia.”

Five months after the raid, Bongiovanni was arrested on felony charges that he accepted $250,000 in bribes and used his position in the DEA to help Buffalo drug dealers – including some the government says are connected to organized crime – avoid arrest.

…

Another government document alleges Bongiovanni drove his car into Canada at 10:11 p.m. on Nov. 29, 2012, with a 64-year-old passenger who was described as “a Buffalo Crime Family associate/confidant” who is “closely associated” with the “Buffalo Crime Boss.” The passenger’s name is blacked out in the report.

…

Prosecutors said they found the names and telephone numbers of numerous criminals, including organized crime figures, in Bongiovanni’s cellphone during the raid on his Tonawanda home.

--The quotes above are taken from Dan Herbeck and LouMichel’s article “With Guns Drawn, Feds Told EX-DEA Agent: ‘Tell us all about the Mafia’” written on February 28, 2021


Just four years ago, the FBI chief in Buffalo said the Mafia here was all but dead.

“Some of the individuals who were leaders of the Mafia are still around,” said Adam S. Cohen, then special agent in charge of the Buffalo FBI office in 2017. “But their organized crime activities don’t exist anymore.”

But now, federal prosecutors are looking for organized crime activities in a widespread investigation that includes a former DEA agent accused of taking bribes, two nephews of the man law enforcement has claimed heads the Buffalo Mafia, a high school teacher who sold drugs, a businessman who grew marijuana in an Amherst mansion and the owner of a medical staffing business accused of fraud.

These six men – and others who know them – form the cast of characters in the latest effort by federal law enforcement to prosecute what government attorneys call the “Italian Organized Crime” family of Western New York: 

…

The latest investigation is a continuation of unsuccessful efforts that date back more than a century, long before the iron-fisted reign of the late Stefano Magaddino, the most powerful Mafia leader in Buffalo’s history.

If there is a powerful Mafia family in Buffalo, law enforcement officials have never proven it.

Despite some successful prosecutions for murder, bookmaking, loan sharking, drug trafficking, theft and other crimes, law enforcement has never made a criminal racketeering case against leaders of the alleged Buffalo Mafia organization.

But now a highly regarded prosecutor, working with Homeland Security and other federal agencies, is taking another crack at proving the Mafia is still active here.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph M. Tripi, who over the past two decades successfully prosecuted a murderous biker gang and homicidal gangsters on Buffalo’s East Side and West Side, is leading a team of government lawyers who are trying to build a case alleging organized crime. 

Tripi was not permitted by the U.S. Attorney's Office to talk with The Buffalo News about the Mafia probe, but he has repeatedly spoken about the investigation into the "Buffalo Mafia," “Italian Organized Crime,” or “IOC” in court documents and in federal court hearings.
“It's an active organized crime investigation,” Tripi told a judge last year, during a detention hearing for Bella. “The investigation reveals that organized crime members and associates, which include Mr. Bella, are involved in drug trafficking and various wire fraud schemes.”

Tripi said the ongoing probe led to a 2019 indictment against Bongiovanni, the former federal drug agent who is charged with taking $250,000 in bribes to protect Masecchia and other alleged mob-connected drug dealers.

…

Twenty-five years later, prosecutors appear to be also taking aim at suspected Buffalo Mafia connections in Canada.
Prosecutors and Mafia experts allege that Buffalo mobsters control organized crime activity in part of Ontario. Canadian authorities said a Hamilton, Ont., drug trafficker named Domenico Violi has been the “underboss” of the Buffalo mob family since 2017, according to Canadian news outlets that covered Violi's trial. Violi is serving an eight-year Canadian prison term for selling methamphetamine, fentanyl and other narcotics.

According to wiretap transcript evidence presented by Canadian prosecutors, alleged Buffalo Mafia boss Joseph A. Todaro named Violi underboss during a meeting in Florida, even planting a kiss on Violi as he honored the Canadian, reported Canadian news outlets.

In November 2017, when authorities announced the arrests of Violi and 12 other mob suspects in Canada and the United States, U.S. Justice Department officials in Brooklyn said the arrests included “members of the Todaro organized crime family.”

…

Five sources who are familiar with the investigation told The News that federal agents have repeatedly asked criminal defendants over the past two years for information about the Buffalo Mafia. The sources said agents are trying to link the cases against Bongiovanni, Masecchia, Serio, Anthony Gerace and Bella – in addition to an ongoing investigation into activities at the Pharaoh’s strip club – to the Buffalo Mafia.

…

Todaro has not been mentioned by name by federal authorities in court papers related to the ongoing organized crime investigation, but Tripi in court called Todaro's nephew Peter Gerace Jr. "a relative of the reputed head of the Buffalo Mafia family." 

…

Nigro declined to tell The News what she was asked about, but she said she had a ringside seat to Buffalo Mafia activities during her four years as Gerace’s wife. They divorced in 2018.

…

Was the FBI wrong when it declared the Buffalo Mafia family all but dead four years ago? Cohen, the former agent in charge of the Buffalo FBI office, no longer works there. Current FBI agents in Buffalo declined to comment for this story. So did U.S. Attorney James P. Kennedy. 

But Ronald M. Fino, a former Buffalo mob associate who has served as an FBI witness and consultant, said he believes the mob is still active in subtle but profitable ways.

“The mob remains very active in Buffalo, but they’re a lot smarter than they used to be,” Fino told The News in early February. “They are less violent than they used to be. They make their money through fraudulent schemes. Now, they do their business through legitimate fronts.”

—Taken from Is the mob back? Feds probe Buffalo Mafia after calling it all but dead by Dan Herbeck , Lou Michel on February 28, 2021 

(Answering the question if he believes there is still a Buffalo mob) "Being away from it for 3/12 years it's difficult for me to give a really good answer. I don't think so. I don't know where this information is coming from. Because when I left the U.S. Attorney's Office, if there were any made members of the Mafia around they were literally on life support. And there wasn't any plans that I knew of to take on new members. So I don't think there's much there, if anything at all. - Tony Bruce (Assistant US Attorney Western District NY, Organized Crime and National Security Division), 2019

If you want to use opinion rags to use your point... I will use this opinion rag The Frank Report by Frank Parlato the current owner of the Niagara Fall Reporter that you like to source. By the way he runs adds in the NF Reporter against Tony Bruce. His article from The Frank Report is titled: DOJ Corruption: AUSA Anthony Bruce Had Legacy of Prosecuting Innocent Men and was written on January 11, 2020. Here is the link: https://frankreport.com/2020/01/11/doj- ... ocent-men/

(Answering the question if he believes there is still a Buffalo mob) "Well I have two initials for the Canadian mobster's claims about the Buffalo mob - BS. I'm certainly not a reporter anymore but am still familiar with the actors and late actors in the mob, and I simply say, where's the revenue? If there's no revenue then there's no mob. And there's nothing of organized criminal activity that you would related to the Arm, the old Buffalo Mafia existing. Certainly there's crime, don't get me wrong, but it's criminal enterprises of different ethnic groups or start-up criminals, nothing related to an organized criminal family that has a head, has lieutenants, has a consigliere, and soldiers, things of that nature. It just doesn't exist in Buffalo or throughout basically Magaddino's empire, except there is a criminal enterprise going on in Canada because when Magaddino lost his grip of the Buffalo Arm or the Buffalo Family, the Canadians took over with fervor." - Lee Coppola, former Buffalo News reporter, 2019

We. need to be careful about accepting Coppola's opinion piece in The Buffalo News at face value. Many of Lee's uncles were involved with the Buffalo Crime Family, and it appears his dad was caught up in gambling busts too. An uncle is described as being involved in drug trafficing being well respected by mafiosos on both sides of the border. His uncle Scareface was Buffalo's Public Enemy #1

(Answering the question if he believes there is still a Buffalo mob) "I think it's akin in the business world going from a company, that employed a lot of people up and down the line, to independent contractors. You hire independent contractors, you do business with independent contractors, on an as-needed basis." - Salvatore Martoche (retired NY Supreme Court, former NY State Commission of Investigation, former US Attorney Western District of NY)

Sam Martoche is credited with starting the witness protection program.... There are a lot of questions regarding the way this witness lived in mob filled areas out west and made many trips back to Buffalo. The questions are this: Was he really in danger? And if not, why not?

"What happens a lot of times is, there are criminal elements, people who commit crimes or people who are investigated for crimes, and if they happen to have a last name that ends in a vowel the tendency is to say 'Oh, there's a crime family, La Cosa Nostra, the Mafia is thriving and growing;' I have trouble believing that." - Lee Coppola (former Buffalo News reporter), I 2019 (I-Team: Is Strip Club Raid A Sign of Buffalo Mafia Resurgance?, WKBW TV)

But you fail to bring up Paul Manning's portion of this interview that indicates the mob in Buffalo is active... Why?

"There's a difference between an organized criminal syndicate, like the Mafia, and those who are just committing crimes. - Peter Ahearn, Former SAC Buffalo FBI (Federal Investigation of Buffalo Mob Resurgence Heats Up With New Indictment, WKBW TV, 2021)

[/quote]

Let's use prosecutor Tripi's quote after the Bongiovanni conviction here:

Tripi added that the trial also proved that Italian organized crime is still alive in Buffalo.

“The proof at trial is that there are still people who hold that reputation, and there was direct testimony that came out at this trial that Mike Masecchia himself admitted he’s a made man,” Tripi said. 

Reported by Aidan Joly, Marlee Tuskes at WIVB News on Oc 10, 20224

[Newyorkempire]

The fact that some posters on this forum keep broad brushing away these countless examples the family exists shows how detached from reality they really are. Be careful what you continue to post on here. An assumption they are in fact cops has to be on the table just the way they behave on here

[Uforeality]

As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

[PTown]

I'll again try to synthesize some of the points, because I've seen good ones from folks on different sides.

Is it possible that one family of the ~30 was able to go "full Corleone" and quietly slip into the world of legitimate business, while maintaining a semblance of illicit strength and Syndicate traditions? I suppose.

And given the previously large numbers of families, one could argue the odds are that ONE has fooled everyone and still exists, while carefully not making any waves with law enforcement.

Of all the families, I agree that Buffalo is probably the best candidate for this.

But the odds of this are slim. Because the mob is NOT just "Italian American families who used to be in crime and now have legit enterprises." An evolved creature is not the previous creature -- it's a new one altogether.

To become a Stealth Family like this hypothetical, one would need to do things like eschew large numbers of soldiers, to the point where the organization is so small, it's hard to claim it's "Organized Crime."

I got a new ebook on Kindle for my Christmas reading called "Mafia Mistaken: Why Everything You Think You Know About Italian American Organized Crime is Wrong" and the author makes this exact point.

I'm probably not going to do the point justice, but he says something like: Everything that exists must have a definition. A seal is not a chicken, and so on. And the mob is defined as a large, organized organization of Italian American criminals engaged in complicated (not petty) racketeering, with a clear hierarchy and structure, that involves paying up the chain of command in exchange for political and judicial protection. (And is bound by omerta, etc.)

For a family like Buffalo to fool everyone that they don't exist any more, they would need to be small, not large. Casual, ad hoc, informal, and opportunistic -- versus regularly engaged in complicated racketeering.

In other words, they would lose several things that compose the very essence of what it means to be Organized Crime.

Let's say you're the boss of one of these families. I'll make your initials JT for illustration purposes only. You are technically made, but your focus is legitimate businesses. Now some supplier screws you over. In the old days, you would send an associate to give him a clear message: you don't mess with me. This, indeed, is your competitive advantage!! Nowadays, you don't (can't!) really do that. You ask yourself, "is the risk worth it?" You decide instead to have your lawyer send him a letter.

If you're not acting like OC -- are you OC?

I'm not saying it's impossible that a family could have gone into Dark Mode.

I'm just saying that we may perhaps a new term for these small wisps of families -- because without a vast structure of soldiers, without omerta (gone everywhere), without complicated rackets, and without special relationships with cops and judges, they're really just hyperlocal, diversified clans of Italian Americans who might have criminal pasts or small criminal interests.

And to address another point here: I don't fault folks for having nostalgia. I don't think those folks are glorifying OC. I understand that the mob is infinitely more interesting than other crime phenomena -- and in its odd way, was "better" than the cartels are, in modern times.

But I think if we're honest, it seems like the mob is NOT nationwide anymore, and thus the Kefauver definition "a sinister national syndicate / conspiracy . . ." is long gone.

[johnny_scootch]

A largely retired, nominal boss. A Canadian drug trafficker who was bumped up to underboss not long after being made (which should tell you something). A captain in Hamilton with one known member under him. And then a half-dozen old, inactive guys in Buffalo.

Leaving the argument about who’s ‘largely retired’ or ‘inactive’ aside what you’re saying is proving my point. I’m not saying they’re a big powerful family, I’m just saying they exist.

Boss, Underboss, at least one captain and several soldiers is what we know exist. Leave the fact that there are always guys we don’t know about aside and there’s the Buffalo family. Severely weakened shell of its former self but it exists.

[Eddie mush]

What’s the deal in Detroit ?
Is this family up and running or just a bunch of old guys with money living there best life in there golden years ??

[NickleCity]

Of all the families, I agree that Buffalo is probably the best candidate for this.

But the odds of this are slim. Because the mob is NOT just "Italian American families who used to be in crime and now have legit enterprises." An evolved creature is not the previous creature -- it's a new one altogether.

To become a Stealth Family like this hypothetical, one would need to do things like eschew large numbers of soldiers, to the point where the organization is so small, it's hard to claim it's "Organized Crime."

I got a new ebook on Kindle for my Christmas reading called "Mafia Mistaken: Why Everything You Think You Know About Italian American Organized Crime is Wrong" and the author makes this exact point.

I'm probably not going to do the point justice, but he says something like: Everything that exists must have a definition. A seal is not a chicken, and so on. And the mob is defined as a large, organized organization of Italian American criminals engaged in complicated (not petty) racketeering, with a clear hierarchy and structure, that involves paying up the chain of command in exchange for political and judicial protection. (And is bound by omerta, etc.)

For a family like Buffalo to fool everyone that they don't exist any more, they would need to be small, not large. Casual, ad hoc, informal, and opportunistic -- versus regularly engaged in complicated racketeering.

In other words, they would lose several things that compose the very essence of what it means to be Organized Crime.

Of the government is not looking they won’t find anything. There has been plenty of activity that could have not been seen because no one was looking. Here is a link to criminal activity on the the so called Dead Years that some could very well have been mob related but wasn’t described that way because LE priorities had changed: viewtopic.php?p=140550#p140550

Be sure to see the two posts after this one and this does not include the new information about Vegas investigations that come up in Bongiovanni’s trial 1.

[Newyorkempire]

You can see blatantly how "Wise"guy creates minimizing titles for them to further push his narrative.

"Largely retired, nominal boss." No proof is retired or nominal. Simply because he owns a successful restaurant doesn't make his point. I.e. Tony Federici

"Drug trafficker" underboss. He is much more than that but he minimizes him in order to push his narrative Buffalo is done and they would never appoint a mere drug trafficker to underboss position.

"One captain" in Canada. While this is totally false in and of itself. He is making it seem as if there is no proof of other bosses, crew bosses under the Buffalo umbrella.

He has specifically left out the captain and/or consigliere position that is firmly in place Buffalo in order to push his narrative Buffalo is dead.

He uses this broad brushing notion that there is no made guys that are active or simply cuts the number of made guys he thinks are the only ones left in order to make the family seem dead or else his claim going back 7-8 years now falls apart miserably

He has to be a cop

[johnny_scootch]

He has to be a cop

Just argue your point because making stupid accusations like this isn’t helping you.

[Newyorkempire]

He has to be a cop

Just argue your point because making stupid accusations like this isn’t helping you.

Not looking for "help". I think they are cops. I've also argued the points to nauseum

[Wiseguy]

Same stupid shit around in circles where you cherry pick in order so that everything fits your narrative. Delusional as usual and never will change.

When you become a reporter, an author or someone who has a career based on this you're just like the rest on here. Searching for the truth and getting it wrong each time while proclaiming you're right.

Unless you in fact are in law enforcement and investigate all these guys?

Having a career based on reporting on OC doesn't necessarily mean anything. We have plenty of examples of that. And I'm nothing like you. Putting false modesty aside, I actually understand the Mafia in the 21st century. You do not. You read the info but you don't interpret and contextualize it correctly.

Yes but these don't take into account context and new information.

What context and new information? Because I'm not aware of any that changes the underlying question or what was thought 10 or 20 years ago. In fact, the recent cases some here are so enamored with only serve to reinforce the years before and after; completely missed by those who look at those cases with tunnel vision.

I've documented and given evidence on the Buffalo thread that Fino has not changed his opinion and has consistently said the Buffalo mob exists before and after this article. Given the consistency of Fino's other statements before and after this... I question if this is correct or if what he said was accidentally taken out context. Here is a Fino's quote from 2021"

“The mob remains very active in Buffalo, but they’re a lot smarter than they used to be,” Fino told The News in early February. “They are less violent than they used to be. They make their money through fraudulent schemes. Now, they do their business through legitimate fronts.”

I don't care who they are. The credibility of anyone claiming the mob in Buffalo is "very active" is automatically in the shitter.

Court documents and statements made by Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Tripi in court suggest “Italian Organized Crime” exists.

It takes the form of drug dealing, bribery, possessing weapons, telemarketing scams and other illegal activities, according to the government.

Are there individuals of Italian descent involved in crimes that have been among those engaged in by traditional Italian organized crime? And do some of those individuals have loose ties to remnants of the Buffalo LCN? Yes. But that doesn't necessarily equate to the Buffalo LCN.

We. need to be careful about accepting Coppola's opinion piece in The Buffalo News at face value. Many of Lee's uncles were involved with the Buffalo Crime Family, and it appears his dad was caught up in gambling busts too. An uncle is described as being involved in drug trafficing being well respected by mafiosos on both sides of the border. His uncle Scareface was Buffalo's Public Enemy #1

Give me a break

Sam Martoche is credited with starting the witness protection program.... There are a lot of questions regarding the way this witness lived in mob filled areas out west and made many trips back to Buffalo. The questions are this: Was he really in danger? And if not, why not?

Give me another break.

But you fail to bring up Paul Manning's portion of this interview that indicates the mob in Buffalo is active... Why?

I would have loved to be able to look at Manning as a source that can be taken at face value. However, like Fino, if he's claiming there's still an active LCN family in Buffalo today, he can't be taken seriously on that point.

Let's use prosecutor Tripi's quote after the Bongiovanni conviction here:

Tripi added that the trial also proved that Italian organized crime is still alive in Buffalo.

“The proof at trial is that there are still people who hold that reputation, and there was direct testimony that came out at this trial that Mike Masecchia himself admitted he’s a made man,” Tripi said. 

Reported by Aidan Joly, Marlee Tuskes at WIVB News on Oc 10, 20224

I wonder why you keep throwing this up like its a strong point. You have someone (and not even an identified made member) testifying Messechia claimed he was a made member. Hardly conclusive, including apparently to the prosecution who referred to him as a "member or associate." And even if, for the sake of argument, we assume he is made; what does that lend to there still being an LCN family in Buffalo?

The fact that some posters on this forum keep broad brushing away these countless examples the family exists shows how detached from reality they really are. Be careful what you continue to post on here. An assumption they are in fact cops has to be on the table just the way they behave on here

Yeah, Pogo is Starsky and I'm Hutch.

And given the previously large numbers of families, one could argue the odds are that ONE has fooled everyone and still exists, while carefully not making any waves with law enforcement.

Of all the families, I agree that Buffalo is probably the best candidate for this.

The exact same claim has been made about several other families. All being the exception to the rule.

For a family like Buffalo to fool everyone that they don't exist any more, they would need to be small, not large. Casual, ad hoc, informal, and opportunistic -- versus regularly engaged in complicated racketeering.

Ding, ding, ding. But not the result of a conscious decision to mislead but simply a natural result of the breakdown of what made it an organized crime family in the first place.

I'm just saying that we may perhaps a new term for these small wisps of families -- because without a vast structure of soldiers, without omerta (gone everywhere), without complicated rackets, and without special relationships with cops and judges, they're really just hyperlocal, diversified clans of Italian Americans who might have criminal pasts or small criminal interests.

Remnants...

A largely retired, nominal boss. A Canadian drug trafficker who was bumped up to underboss not long after being made (which should tell you something). A captain in Hamilton with one known member under him. And then a half-dozen old, inactive guys in Buffalo.

Leaving the argument about who’s ‘largely retired’ or ‘inactive’ aside what you’re saying is proving my point. I’m not saying they’re a big powerful family, I’m just saying they exist.

Boss, Underboss, at least one captain and several soldiers is what we know exist. Leave the fact that there are always guys we don’t know about aside and there’s the Buffalo family. Severely weakened shell of its former self but it exists.

When does it cease to exist? When the last member dies?

What’s the deal in Detroit ?
Is this family up and running or just a bunch of old guys with money living there best life in there golden years ??

The latter.

"Largely retired, nominal boss." No proof is retired or nominal. Simply because he owns a successful restaurant doesn't make his point. I.e. Tony Federici

Yeah, that's right. He's such a genius he's figured out how to avoid arrest and imprisonment when other bosses haven't.

"Drug trafficker" underboss. He is much more than that but he minimizes him in order to push his narrative Buffalo is done and they would never appoint a mere drug trafficker to underboss position.

He's a significant drug trafficker, to be sure. But he was clearly made underboss so soon after being made for two reasons. His last name and the lack of competition for the position.

"One captain" in Canada. While this is totally false in and of itself. He is making it seem as if there is no proof of other bosses, crew bosses under the Buffalo umbrella.

"Bosses or crew bosses under the Buffalo umbrella." Whatever that means.

He has specifically left out the captain and/or consigliere position that is firmly in place Buffalo in order to push his narrative Buffalo is dead.

And, pray tell, who would the captain in Buffalo or the consigliere be?

He uses this broad brushing notion that there is no made guys that are active or simply cuts the number of made guys he thinks are the only ones left in order to make the family seem dead or else his claim going back 7-8 years now falls apart miserably

And who's active other than the few we know about? Or are we just assuming there are many active guys magically flying under the radar? It's not my "claim." It's the simple facts. And facts, as they say, are stubborn things.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Wiseguy, why bother?

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy, why bother?

Point taken. I had a feeling this would get turned into another Buffalo thread.

[NothingNew44]

Lol. It happens.

[Newyorkempire]

"He knew it would turn into another Buffalo thread after he turned it into a Buffalo thread." Now that's great interpretation and contextualization by a cop