Double Affiliation

[CabriniGreen]

Its turning into a discussion, carry on fellas...

[CabriniGreen]

@Laurentian


I almost missed that key piece of info you posted, that Cattolica answered to Siculiana in the structure of the Sicilian mafia, and Siculiana meant the Cuntreras....

[CabriniGreen]

@lupara

I forgot about the the thing with Cotronis son.
Is that the real story?

Was it the Montreal Cotronis who made the beef?

[B.]

The Rizzutos were made members of the Bonanno family. It has come up before that on the Violi wiretaps, he discusses how the Montreal decina allows transfers after 6 years. With this in mind, it is possible that Nick Rizzuto was a Sicilian mafia member who transferred to the Montreal crew. Either way, when a member transfers, they have given up their previous affiliation and are then 100% affiliated with their new group. It seems likely that, as a decina of a NYC family, the Montreal crew didn't have its own unique rules allowing tranfers, but was mirroring a system used in NYC, at least by the Bonanno family. There is reason to believe that a few men from Castellammare for example transferred into the Bonannos in the late-1950s/60s. We also know from newer info provided by police that the Gambinos seem to have allowed the rare transfer from Sicily up until modern times. So for all of these reasons I would believe the Montreal decina was operating based on a system used by NYC. There's no reason to think that Montreal would be unique with this rule, especially given the Calabrian leadership.

Cabrini -- to go back to what you said about my comment re: "who recognizes them?", this is not a question related to clout, influence, networking, wealth, or criminal activity. We have had this discussion a few times and each time I've stressed that I'm not talking about these aspects of an organization, which I acknowledge are very important to understanding the bigger picture of a "mafia"-style group, but those having nothing to do with my point. These are well-defined, formal organizations that are enhanced by recognition from other formal organizations under the same umbrella. In this way, when I say Mafia, I mean it as a proper noun referring to a specific type of organization or "system" (to use Joe Bonanno's explanation), and not a casual use of "mafia" that simply refers to Italian organized crime. When people say the "Montreal Mafia Family", I have to again ask what that means? A Cosa Nostra family? If so, that requires other Cosa Nostra groups to recognize them. If your point is that they are a pan-Italian group that follows its own rules that mirror Cosa Nostra, that still does not make it a Cosa Nostra family. For example, in the United States or Sicily, when a mafia organization cropped up during the early years, they required recognition from the boss of bosses (Morello/D'Aquila) or later the Commission. We don't know all of the details of this, but when new families were started, they did not simply decide they were a mafia family -- they were participating in a much larger process that required certain protocol. This protocol may be unimportant in Canada today, but the question still stands -- what is the formal affiliation of the Montreal Bonanno decina if they are not Cosa Nostra?

For whatever reason, the Cotroni era gets downplayed or at least ignored in these discussions. Vic Cotroni was referred to as a "boss" of an "organization" and even "family" back during his heyday, but we know he was formally a capodecina in the Bonanno family who maintained a large degree of autonomy but was ultimately part of the Bonanno hierarchy at the end of the day and not on his own. The Cotronis were major figures in a sprawling international network, had dominant influence over Montreal and likely other parts of Canada, and Vic and Giuseppe Cotroni were continually referred to as leaders in one of, if not the largest, international heroin trafficking operations of the time, if not all-time. The Rizzutos inherited this and brought in their own connections, but they didn't create some new powerful organization out of thin air and there is no evidence that they were any more "powerful" (as if that can be measured) during their time at the top of Montreal than the Cotronis. So when talking about the autonomy/independence of the Montreal group, the Cotronis should always be included as it is not just a story of the Rizzutos.

[Lupara]

The Rizzutos were made members of the Bonanno family. It has come up before that on the Violi wiretaps, he discusses how the Montreal decina allows transfers after 6 years. With this in mind, it is possible that Nick Rizzuto was a Sicilian mafia member who transferred to the Montreal crew. Either way, when a member transfers, they have given up their previous affiliation and are then 100% affiliated with their new group. It seems likely that, as a decina of a NYC family, the Montreal crew didn't have its own unique rules allowing tranfers, but was mirroring a system used in NYC, at least by the Bonanno family. There is reason to believe that a few men from Castellammare for example transferred into the Bonannos in the late-1950s/60s. We also know from newer info provided by police that the Gambinos seem to have allowed the rare transfer from Sicily up until modern times. So for all of these reasons I would believe the Montreal decina was operating based on a system used by NYC. There's no reason to think that Montreal would be unique with this rule, especially given the Calabrian leadership.

I think that Violi basically brushed off the Sicilian "intruders" as I think he'd view them by informing them about this supposedly five year probation period. Then again, Donnie Brasco was also about five years on record with the Colombos/Bonannos when he was proposed for membership so it could very well have been a rule.

For whatever reason, the Cotroni era gets downplayed or at least ignored in these discussions. Vic Cotroni was referred to as a "boss" of an "organization" and even "family" back during his heyday, but we know he was formally a capodecina in the Bonanno family who maintained a large degree of autonomy but was ultimately part of the Bonanno hierarchy at the end of the day and not on his own. The Cotronis were major figures in a sprawling international network, had dominant influence over Montreal and likely other parts of Canada, and Vic and Giuseppe Cotroni were continually referred to as leaders in one of, if not the largest, international heroin trafficking operations of the time, if not all-time. The Rizzutos inherited this and brought in their own connections, but they didn't create some new powerful organization out of thin air and there is no evidence that they were any more "powerful" (as if that can be measured) during their time at the top of Montreal than the Cotronis. So when talking about the autonomy/independence of the Montreal group, the Cotronis should always be included as it is not just a story of the Rizzutos.

Agreed mostly. But I'm not sure whether the Rizzutos actually inherited the Cotroni's drug operation, in the true meaning of the word. Both had formed their own separate connections as part of a larger operation, the Cotronis the Corsican gangs and the Rizzutos their fellow Sicilians. Or do you also view the Pizza Connection as an inheritance of the French Connection? That would be the same as saying that the Cali cartel inherited Escobar's drug empire. Both had different operators, their own labs and smuggling routes. The Sicilians formed an operation that was at some point in coexistence with the Corsicans and filled the vacuum left by the latter. On top of that, the Cotronis were mainly in heroin, but the Rizzutos through the Cuntreras were also in coke. I do believe their operation, if you look at the larger picture, eclipsed that of the Cotronis by some degree.

Personally I'm inclined to think that Vito Rizzuto became a more powerful, or at the very least influential figure, within the Canadian Mafia as a whole than Cotroni although in Montreal it would be comparable. Cotroni also seemed to have been more loyal to the Bonanno administration which would restrict his power imo. The difference is that in the Cotroni era, there was one centralized organization with a clear hierarchy that was similar to a traditional Mob crew in New York. In the Rizzuto era the Montreal Mafia became more of an enterprise or cartel and even though there was a chain of command from my pov it was more decentralized with more cells and crew leaders having more autonomy. This imo contributed heavily to the decline of the Montreal Bonanno crew. It basically became a family in its own right although not like actually breaking off as a rogue group as the Canadian journalists would want you to believe. The Rizzutos only gained more freedom because of their relationship with Sciascia followed by the Bonannos having to deal with their own problems in New York.

By the time Montagna came to Montreal, there was no functional crew left such as in the 70s that he could simply take over and become the boss of the Montreal Mafia. Groups had formed that were no longer directly associated with the Bonannos, and the younger generation wasn't affiliated with them anymore, so naturally there was resistance to his ambitions.

[B.]

Oh no, I didn't mean that the "Rizzutos" inherited the exact drug operation previously under the Cotronis. Giuseppe Cotroni was of course busted along with Galante, etc. early on and I'm not sure which threads connect after that. What I mean is that you had made members of the Bonanno family running the exact same type of operation(s) in the exact same area, having very similar relationships to major mafia-affiliated drug traffickers overseas and in the US/NYC.

[scagghiuni]

By the time Montagna came to Montreal, there was no functional crew left such as in the 70s that he could simply take over and become the boss of the Montreal Mafia.

according to who?

[CabriniGreen]

@B.

What I tried to point out was that the "Rizzuto" group was recognized by all the mafia players that mattered at the time.
Certainly the biggest guys in Sicily, and by AT LEAST two of the five families, one being arguably the most powerful in the Gambinos. I'm not sure what you think was supposed to happen? A mafia summit like the Calabrian meet at Aspromonte? To anoint the Rizzutos an official family? You are talking about a time when the Cupola was like the biggest mafia businessmen, first in the Tobbacco trade, then heroin, it's the same people, all Rizzuto allies.

If you think tradition was going to trump business, time and time again we see that's not the case, not even here. The Bonnanos chose business over Tradition. Don't get it twisted, they literally IGNORED every reason to hit Nicolo, and JUMPED at Violi getting caught on tape as an excuse to hit him. They WANTED to pick Nicolo over Violi, they just couldn't JUSTIFY it.

[CabriniGreen]

Also, the French Connection was NOT a Bonnano family operation. At least I don't think so....ALL the five families had their own contact for the dope coming through Montreal. Luciano and Coppola organized this in Italy, Montreal became important because Cuba and the Carribean route fell apart, and with that narcotics law, plus the aftermath of Keafauver, NY was a little hot. Which pushed Montreal to the forefront....

To fully gain control, Bonnano and Galante, the American contingent had to go to Sicily, and they went there to have the Sicilians take over as distributors, so they wouldn't have to do it. Too many guys getting indicted for heavy time.

[CabriniGreen]

@ scagguini

Okay, now I'm ready for it.... Please break it down for me...

WHO WAS THIS BONNANO CREW YOU GUYS REFER TO? Who are the guys? Were they all with Montagna? How many?
Everyone says there is a Bonnano crew there, but when Montagna gets there he teams up with Loprestis son, The Frenchman, guys who aren't even MADE? Then he uses the street gangs as muscle, WHY NOT THE MADE GUYS, who by mafia rule, are UNDER him?

@ B.

John Dick explains it well in his book. There was no 6 year Montreal rule. That's what Violi came up with to justify keeping Nicolo out of the Montreal power structure. The Sixth family went into this extensively, the problem of the drug trade, the fact that's it had become a GLOBAL business, and how this created problems because in order to be most effective, you had to cut across family lines, territories, and even ethnic makeup.


See the LCN method for increasing power in territories and markets that they didn't control was to INITIATE the point men.... This gave them business connections and access to markets, but not control.



They initiated Zaza to gain ACCESS to the tobacco markets. Now, as superior as their organization was, they weren't making the money the Naples smugglers were. They brought ORGANIZATION to the trade and this increased profits for everyone, but they ABSOLUTELY could not control Zaza. Yet hitting him woulda been fuckin stupid, he's the reason they had access at all.



This was a time where Sicily was in disarray and the money was in Naples. In MARKETS, not Masonic connections that bring you close to politicians. Not in territorial dominance, extortion. Commerce, buying and selling a product everyone wanted.

This situation to me is similar to the Rizzutos

LCN initiated the Piromallis, did it give em control of the Gia Tauro plain? The Colombo package? Of course not. It gave them access to the men that run Calabria.

Same with the Casalesi. Initiating guys like Bardellino and Alfieri gave LCN access to the men that ran Naples, not direct CONTROL of Naples. This was proven when they attacked the Nuvolettas farm, and LCN influence in Capania diminished...

This method is cool for BUSINESS TIES, MONEY. Not POWER. For power you need the Calabrian model of COLONIZATION.


Thats just MY take on it. The Bonnanos initiating the Rizzutos gave em access to the men that controlled the drug trade, like a privileged relationship. But it didn't mean THEY CONTROLLED THE DRUG TRADE.

[scagghiuni]

@ scagguini

Okay, now I'm ready for it.... Please break it down for me...

WHO WAS THIS BONNANO CREW YOU GUYS REFER TO? Who are the guys? Were they all with Montagna? How many?
Everyone says there is a Bonnano crew there, but when Montagna gets there he teams up with Loprestis son, The Frenchman, guys who aren't even MADE? Then he uses the street gangs as muscle, WHY NOT THE MADE GUYS, who by mafia rule, are UNDER him?

since there is not a turncoat who really explains clearly the things are all speculations

[Lupara]

By the time Montagna came to Montreal, there was no functional crew left such as in the 70s that he could simply take over and become the boss of the Montreal Mafia.

according to who?

According to my own analysis having followed what happened there with great interest since it all started. Having Nick Rizzuto and the other Rizzuto loyalists not wanting to fall in line and accept Montagna as their boss even though he was the acting boss of their family and entitled to take over the crew. And not to mention the fact (or at least based on all the info that we know of) that the group didn't have a capo after Sciascia. A crew without a capo, split into two camps with members mostly looking after their own interests, imo can be considered disfunctional. It is why a family as Buffalo is now considered non-viable by the feds, because there is no more hierarchy.

[scagghiuni]

ok, your analysis, but i wait some internal members who starts to cooperate and explain it, because there is not any evidence they had not a capo after sciascia murder

[johnny_scootch]

WHO WAS THIS BONNANO CREW YOU GUYS REFER TO? Who are the guys? Were they all with Montagna? How many?
Everyone says there is a Bonnano crew there, but when Montagna gets there he teams up with Loprestis son, The Frenchman, guys who aren't even MADE? Then he uses the street gangs as muscle, WHY NOT THE MADE GUYS, who by mafia rule, are UNDER him?

Montagna was rejected by the RIzzuto's as their superior. Nick is on tape saying 'He's not my boss'. I'm assuming most if not all the other made guys followed suit so Sal had to use other men in his power play.

There was no 6 year Montreal rule. That's what Violi came up with to justify keeping Nicolo out of the Montreal power structure.

It was my understanding that Nick Rizzuto was already a member at this point and Violi was referring to the numerous amount of Sicilians showing up in Montreal and wanting to be recognized as made guys. I dont think the 5/6 year rule had anything to do with Nick directly did it?

[B.]

Not in the mood right now to respond to speculation with more speculation, especially about the inner-machinations of multiple mafia groups in different parts of the world spanning multiple decades, but just a couple of points:

Never seen info confirming Nick Rizzuto as a member prior to coming to North America despite how often this comes up. If he was a member and the Montreal crew did have a probation period before allowing transfers from Sicily, it would have applied to him as well as anybody. We do know he was later recognized as a Bonanno member, so he either transferred or was originally inducted into the Bonannos. As it says in the Sixth Family, Nick Rizzuto visited the US from Canada in early 1957, when the books were still open, so without knowing more, it seems possible he could have been inducted then. There is also reason to believe that Joe Bonanno may have inducted Canadian members after the books closed in 1957, as one of the Commission's complaints against him is that he inducted members after the books were closed (likely on the west coast and Canada), so that is another possibility.

Antonino Calderone claimed that Paolo Violi visited him in Sicily before visiting Settecasi and ultimately making a trip to Calabria. Violi was looking to be introduced to "men of honor" (in the Sicilian mafia sense) in Calabria, ignorant to the fact that, according to Calderone, there were no "men of honor" there at that time. Violi claimed that he was the head of a decina in Montreal that reported to a New York family, but that his boss in NYC didn't care what he did with his crew as long as he passed along money at the end of the year. All of this is interesting because it shows that despite Violi's relation to important Calabrians in Toronto and allegedly coming from Camorra/'ndrangheta heritage in Calabria, he really didn't understand the organizational landscape in Italy and none of his fellow Calabresi in Canada clued him in, meaning they may not have known themselves.

What is interesting, though, is that Violi was able to meet with Sicilian mafiosi and discuss internal Cosa Nostra matters with them. So while there may not have been Cosa Nostra members in Calabria at that time according to Calderone, the Sicilian mafia was at least willing to recognize the Calabrese Violi's membership in the US mafia. And we do know that the Sicilians recognized US membership through the 1960s (Angelo Bruno's travels being a good example), so it seems that Sicilians had no problem recognizing the membership of anyone inducted into a US mafia family regardless of heritage. That said, despite seemingly recognizing his membership, Calderone had a very low opinion of Violi.