The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

[Pogo The Clown]

Hey Pogo, what is your source for Feds not recognizing Buffalo 20 years or more ago?

"Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US News & World Report, 2000)


"Operation Button Down, the codename for the FBI's campaign to crush the Mafia, reduced the number of families operating in the United States from 24 to only nine, FBI officials said. (CNN, 2004)


"Within the LCN there are five principal crime families. Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US Congressional Report, 2010)


"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (US Justice Department, 2011)


“The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes." - FBI website Circe 2000s.

[Newyorkempire]

None of those snippets matter though because it came out the narrative they were defunct was a farce and the FBI simply was failing at charging any of the alleged bosses to bring down the top of the organization. When the FEDS failed in the 90s they then began to simply say the family was defunct or excluded then from their lists because it saved face and because it looked as if they eradicated them.

[NickleCity]

"Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US News & World Report, 2000)


"Operation Button Down, the codename for the FBI's campaign to crush the Mafia, reduced the number of families operating in the United States from 24 to only nine, FBI officials said. (CNN, 2004)


"Within the LCN there are five principal crime families. Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US Congressional Report, 2010)


"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (US Justice Department, 2011)


“The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes." - FBI website Circe 2000s.

Thanks for this Pogo, I appreciate you laying out the sources like this. I can understand why people believe this Buffalo family is dead based on this.

However, creates a lot of dissonance for me. For example it clashes with the fact that even in 2006 the FBI was still charting the family. My question is this: How can the FBI suggest there is no family in Buffalo in 2000 when they are still charting it in 2006.

Inconsistencies like this make it hard for me to give much credence to these statements by the FBI.

[Newyorkempire]

I don't understand why some posters here want the family to be dead so bad. It really makes me think they are cops. I'm being 100% serious

[OcSleeper]

Why wouldn't you want it to be dead? Lol we seriously advocating for more mafia activity here?

[Newyorkempire]

Why wouldn't you want it to be dead? Lol we seriously advocating for more mafia activity here?

Yes. Would much rather have mafia crimes than what else goes on today.

[Ivan]

Why wouldn't you want it to be dead? Lol we seriously advocating for more mafia activity here?

Yes. Would much rather have mafia crimes than what else goes on today.

You should hear people in Las Vegas go on about this. "Oh, the city was so much better when the mob ran things."

[PTown]

Synthesizing the above, it is possible to reconcile the positions.

Many outside of NY refer tend to think of the whole area as NY. We don’t distinguish. So if you read the FBI’s words as “NY state” versus “NYC”, it makes greater sense.

Also: some of their statements use a lot of qualifiers. “Remains a significant threat.”

Buffalo could exist; perhaps they didn’t consider it a significant threat.

Does anyone know when they gave a precise number of families left, which families they listed?

[NickleCity]

Why wouldn't you want it to be dead? Lol we seriously advocating for more mafia activity here?

Yes. Would much rather have mafia crimes than what else goes on today.

You should hear people in Las Vegas go on about this. "Oh, the city was so much better when the mob ran things."

Ivan, as misguided as it is that is very much the sentiment of many people in Niagara County with the decline of The Falls and surrounding areas.

On another note I just want to make it clear that I push for recognition of the Mafia in WNY because I know people who have been hurt by the organizations activities and believe the only way to eradicate is by exposing it. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want but I believe there has been an active strategy to keep the mob alive in WNY by denying its existence and/or diminishing its influence.

[Pogo The Clown]

Synthesizing the above, it is possible to reconcile the positions.

Many outside of NY refer tend to think of the whole area as NY. We don’t distinguish. So if you read the FBI’s words as “NY state” versus “NYC”, it makes greater sense.

Also: some of their statements use a lot of qualifiers. “Remains a significant threat.”

Buffalo could exist; perhaps they didn’t consider it a significant threat.

Does anyone know when they gave a precise number of families left, which families they listed?

They have specifically said Buffalo is gone. Originally posted by Wiseguy.

Today, despite rumors that what was once the Magaddino family still operates here, federal organized crime investigators say those tales just aren’t true. They say small numbers of loosely associated individuals may still get together to commit what once were Mafia style crimes, but it’s not like the old days. - End of Organized Crime in Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Niagara Gazette, 2006


“A 10-year, government-enforced cleanup of Local 210 ends today with the retirement of John J. "Jack" McDonnell as the union's court-appointed liaison officer. McDonnell, a former FBI special agent, gave the union a clean bill of health in a recent report to U.S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara. He said he believes the current leaders of the local are ready to run the operation themselves, with no government supervision.” - Local 210 Gets Clean Bill Of Health 10-Year, Government-Enforced Cleanup Of Union Ends Today With The Retirement Of Its Overseer, The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2006


“There’s a few of the old-timers still around in Buffalo, but that’s about it,” one current federal inmate told the Niagara Falls Reporter. “There’s really nothing left to organize.” - Mob May Be Dead But Not Forgotten, Niagara Falls Reporter (Mike Hudson), 2012


"Even the most optimistic observers say the old Magaddino outfit has but 20 made guys left at most, and the majority of them have long since qualified for Social Security." - Who Will Lead Now That Todaro, Nicoletti Are Gone, Niagara Falls Reporter (Mike Hudson), 2013


“Some of the individuals who were leaders of the Mafia are still around. But their organized crime activities don’t exist anymore. Some of them have legitimate businesses that we know of.” - Adam S. Cohen, SAC Buffalo FBI; The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017


“The Mafia, and the way of life that fostered the Mafia, is pretty much gone,” said Lee Coppola, 73, a former federal prosecutor and news reporter who grew up among mobsters and their families on Buffalo’s West Side. - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017


Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader. - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017


“There are a few remnants of the mob that still exist in Buffalo,” said Ronald Fino, a former union leader who helped the FBI investigate the local mob, “but it’s not the same.” - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017 (changed his tune in 2021)


“Once we got them out of Local 210, that was the beginning of the end for the Buffalo mob,” said Andrew Goralski, a former Buffalo FBI agent who retired in 2007. “That was their power source in Buffalo.” - Andew Goralski, Former FBI - The Mafia Is All But Dead In Western New York. So What Killed It? - The Buffalo News (Dan Herbeck), 2017


(Answering the question if he believes there is still a Buffalo mob) "Being away from it for 3/12 years it's difficult for me to give a really good answer. I don't think so. I don't know where this information is coming from. Because when I left the U.S. Attorney's Office, if there were any made members of the Mafia around they were literally on life support. And there wasn't any plans that I knew of to take on new members. So I don't think there's much there, if anything at all. - Tony Bruce (Assistant US Attorney Western District NY, Organized Crime and National Security Division), 2019


(Answering the question if he believes there is still a Buffalo mob) "Well I have two initials for the Canadian mobster's claims about the Buffalo mob - BS. I'm certainly not a reporter anymore but am still familiar with the actors and late actors in the mob, and I simply say, where's the revenue? If there's no revenue then there's no mob. And there's nothing of organized criminal activity that you would related to the Arm, the old Buffalo Mafia existing. Certainly there's crime, don't get me wrong, but it's criminal enterprises of different ethnic groups or start-up criminals, nothing related to an organized criminal family that has a head, has lieutenants, has a consigliere, and soldiers, things of that nature. It just doesn't exist in Buffalo or throughout basically Magaddino's empire, except there is a criminal enterprise going on in Canada because when Magaddino lost his grip of the Buffalo Arm or the Buffalo Family, the Canadians took over with fervor." - Lee Coppola, former Buffalo News reporter, 2019


(Answering the question if he believes there is still a Buffalo mob) "I think it's akin in the business world going from a company, that employed a lot of people up and down the line, to independent contractors. You hire independent contractors, you do business with independent contractors, on an as-needed basis." - Salvatore Martoche (retired NY Supreme Court, former NY State Commission of Investigation, former US Attorney Western District of NY)


"What happens a lot of times is, there are criminal elements, people who commit crimes or people who are investigated for crimes, and if they happen to have a last name that ends in a vowel the tendency is to say 'Oh, there's a crime family, La Cosa Nostra, the Mafia is thriving and growing;' I have trouble believing that." - Lee Coppola (former Buffalo News reporter), I 2019 (I-Team: Is Strip Club Raid A Sign of Buffalo Mafia Resurgance?, WKBW TV)


"There's a difference between an organized criminal syndicate, like the Mafia, and those who are just committing crimes. - Peter Ahearn, Former SAC Buffalo FBI (Federal Investigation of Buffalo Mob Resurgence Heats Up With New Indictment, WKBW TV, 2021)

[Ivan]

Ivan, as misguided as it is that is very much the sentiment of many people in Niagara County with the decline of The Falls and surrounding areas.

You hear it from people in Youngstown a lot, too, for similar and somewhat understandable reasons.

The Vegas thing makes more sense to me because a lot of the things the corporations pull really do seem greedy and shitty compared to when the mob was in charge. Frank Balistrieri may have murdered his enemies but he never suprised anyone with a "resort fee" not included in the hotel price.

[Ivan]

"I think it's akin in the business world going from a company, that employed a lot of people up and down the line, to independent contractors. You hire independent contractors, you do business with independent contractors, on an as-needed basis." - Salvatore Martoche

I really like this analogy for describing what's going on with the families that are no longer structured but still have made guys doing things here and there. Thanks for posting.

[West Coast1]

there is a vacation tax or some shit at niagra falls
deny's breakfast take a hit lol

gov is running the rackets now, when it was private if you didn;t participate you weren't affected
now everyone pays because its not private

[Wiseguy]

Thanks all for the good replies.

Question though: why do a couple of you say Detroit is near-defunct. Relatively recent news articles say things like

“ longstanding picture of stability and efficiency in an underworld landscape littered with defectors, dissidents and dim-bulb thugs.”

That it’s run like an ndrangheta ndrine where most of the folks are related by blood and marriage.

That it has like 35-45 MM, and continues to make more.

That Detroit mobsters are very wealthy.

That Michigan police can’t wiretap, unlike most of the states.

And that the Partnership has remained stable and is still considered a top criminal organization within the state.

So why do folks think it’s close to defunct?

35-45 made members? What kind of fantasy is this? They didn't even have that many back during the GamTax bust. Detroit is down to single digits. When was the last time they made anyone, who was it, and how would you know anyway? We think it's defunct because it is. As Pogo said, the last case of any significance was the 2006 bust and that was a glorified gambling case. And there's really no structure to speak of out of Scott's charts. Enough said.

3rd Tier: No longer viable/structured but still seem to have people doing some things. E.g., Buffalo.

You don’t agree that having a Boss, Underboss, at least one Captain and several soldiers and associates that we know about counts as structured?

Imo The Buffalo family seems to be most like Chicago at this point in time. Both viable both structured but absolute shells of their former selves.

A largely retired, nominal boss. A Canadian drug trafficker who was bumped up to underboss not long after being made (which should tell you something). A captain in Hamilton with one known member under him. And then a half-dozen old, inactive guys in Buffalo.

My knowledge is mostly Chicago, so I'll comment in regard to that family.

While the family is infinitely smaller, less impactful, and less dangerous than it ever was, I think it going totally extinct is a long way off. The Outfit is comprised of extremely tight, generations long, familial and social relationships. For many of these families, it's a true "family" business. The bonds are tight and deep, and extremely secretive. For those reasons, it will likely continue, in a reduced form, for a good while.

Frank Calabrese, one of the primary made member defendants in the 2007 Family Secrets trial, was caught on a bug talking about the structure and the future of outfit in the year 2000. He discussed how the leadership was intentionally streamlining things, with fewer made members, and tighter controls. The intent was to have more to go around for made guys, and to keep security tight. He likened the structure to a "christmas tree" type chart. A vertical setup with fewer players, as opposed to the wider, more expansive type mob charts we are used to seeing.

The Outfit is down to 15 known made guys at most. And most of them are inactive. It doesn't matter who or what's left afterwards, once that inner core of made members are gone, there's no more Outfit

All of the families listed under "defunct" and "possibly extant but no longer functioning" were essentially finished by the end of the 1980s. The one exception might be Pittsburgh who, along with Buffalo and Detroit, lasted through the 1990s.

Tampa was active through the Raffa indictment in 2000, then faded down from there. The FDLE and FBI had three active investigations in the early 2000s related to mob influence in the courts/political corruption.

Tampa was one of the families the FBI said it was "close to crossing off" in the early 1990s. Of course, as we've seen in many places, there can be investigations of remnants of families afterward.

I get what you’re saying here but me to Buffalo is certainly viable by my definition. Or at least I would say they were certainly viable not too many years ago when they were promoting administration members, captains, making new members, recruiting and networking with other families. All those things to me is what makes a family viable, one that is functioning at all levels even though it’s overall size and power has been reduced considerably.

And examples have been given at least a dozen times of other families that had all of these things that subsequently showed it was largely form, and no substance, and the family was essentially finished.

This is so far off base. Chicago is a monolith compared to buffalo. Montreal & NY using buffalo as a mid-way point doesn’t constitute there being a family there.

A LOT of what the Feds put out there for public consumption is pure nonsense (especially when it comes to families that are difficult to penetrate a la Genovese-Detroit-Chicago), and they most certainly do not know everything (again, especially concerning the three aforementioned families), so I’m in no way implying that we should take every word from them as bond, the way that that some armchair goober from Dinglefucker, Kentucky would, such as that mental patient from the old gangster bb forum Ivy League I think their name was

However, if they considered them to still be a hierarchal LCN family, then they’d be listed as active. That much we can count on. Buffalo has difficulty keeping people from fleeing due to the economy being dog shit, let alone maintaining a healthy LCN family

First, I was IvyLeage on that godforsaken board. Second, aren't you're the guy who thought Catena turned over the reigns to Muscarella when he retired? I've read your posts since you started and one thing is clear, you're out of your depth.

Hey Pogo, what is your source for Feds not recognizing Buffalo 20 years or more ago?

"Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US News & World Report, 2000)


"Operation Button Down, the codename for the FBI's campaign to crush the Mafia, reduced the number of families operating in the United States from 24 to only nine, FBI officials said. (CNN, 2004)


"Within the LCN there are five principal crime families. Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US Congressional Report, 2010)


"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (US Justice Department, 2011)


“The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes." - FBI website Circe 2000s.

On top of that, in 1998 the feds said the family was "weak and resurgence unlikely," and that was over 25 years ago. Also, despite the outlier cases, over the past 5 years or so we've seen a former US prosecutor, a former Commisioner of Investigation, and a former FBI SAC all made comments to the effect of the LCN in Buffalo being all but finished.

I don't understand why some posters here want the family to be dead so bad. It really makes me think they are cops. I'm being 100% serious

As usual, you get things exactly backward. It's those like yourself who want mob families to still be around. You've shown this repeatedly, not just with Buffalo but other families as well. I don't really understand the psychology behind it but have observed it enough over the years to know it when I see it.

One thing is for sure, in 10 years WG and Pogo are still going to be arguing with posters who claim to be from cities with active mob presence

There has been progress but, yeah, it won't be over 10 years from now.

[Newyorkempire]

Same stupid shit around in circles where you cherry pick in order so that everything fits your narrative. Delusional as usual and never will change.

When you become a reporter, an author or someone who has a career based on this you're just like the rest on here. Searching for the truth and getting it wrong each time while proclaiming you're right.

Unless you in fact are in law enforcement and investigate all these guys?