Capone and the Mafia

[Antiliar]

I wonder if they had a consiglieri in the old days, before Capone was inducted. So pre Capone LCN.

That's it -- without information from a member who was there or who heard from another member, we can't see in from the outside. Magaddino was a boss in the 1920s and didn't have a consigliere, meanwhile a tiny family like San Francisco did have one in 1929. It's difficult to know when a family did and didn't follow the typical structure and protocol without someone who was there and even then we're sometimes at a loss.

We also don't know if early Chicago had a council / consiglio / "seggia" like Milwaukee, St. Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Tampa, and other families around the country. This was a formal council that included the administration members, captains, and senior members and helped dictate policy and conduct underworld trials within the family alongside the boss. Some of the later descriptions of Chicago's structure are reminiscent of this which makes you wonder if it evolved from the earlier council / consiglio that we saw around the country.

I'll say it like this: based on the amount of evidence that we have so far, from informants to ELSURS, we currently have no evidence that we are aware of that shows the Outfit ever having a traditional consigliere.

[B.]

That's a well-worded way of putting it.

[Confederate]

That's a well-worded way of putting it.

That's because he doesn't have a hidden agenda. You could have worded it this way yourself but instead chose long paragraphs of hypothetical nonsense with no evidence in order to promote your "Sicilian Obsession". See the difference between you & him?

[B.]

If you were to say, "There is no known evidence that Chicago had an official consigliere," I would agree with that. On the other hand, saying, "There is no known evidence that Chicago had an official consigliere, therefore we know for fact they never had an official consigliere," is a different statement that I can't logically agree with.

[Confederate]

Speaking about guesses and evidences (this is mainly for the previous thread not this one), sometimes and i say only sometimes, we dont need hard evidences so we can label somebody a capo or a soldier. Lets take Ralph Capone for example, I personally (speaking for myself here) have never seen any file (maybe you or someone else have seen it) which states that Ralph was a capo BUT ive seen dozens of files which say that Ralph was a high level member of the Outfit and used to have many people beneath him.

This is a tough one, because I know myself it's not fun to make a chart or list filled with ranks labeled "maybe" or "probably", and I'm all for speculating that someone "could have been" a captain, but as a researcher I try to be careful about labeling someone's formal position. The mafia during all eras and incarnations has a way of being deceptive about rank.

At the end of the day it's not world peace, especially when it's just a board discussion, but in terms of accuracy I think it's best to lean conservative and go with the exact description the source gave. For example I have some issues with the Detroit book "Vinnitta" -- he gives everyone a specific position in the mafia hierarchy during early years where we simply don't have reliable information on ranks and titles... let alone membership! The FBI, despite their imperfections, has great standards for this that we can use as a guideline.

Ralph Capone very well could have had a rank, so not discounting the possibility he was a capo, just making a broad point about research here. I think Antiliar and CC's May 2014 Informer issue set a high standard in this regard -- they easily could have created hierarchy charts but they played it conservative while also providing a wealth of info, inviting us as readers to draw our own conclusions. That was for the published article, though -- I know in casual conversation they are more open to discussion.

I understand but sorry you are a little bit wrong on that one. First you forgot to bold the "only sometimes" part meaning sometimes we dont have straight answers from members such as....this guy was a capo...or this guy was a consigliere, but we do have information about that same individual regarding his activities, associations, wealth etc.

So first we will see if that individual had any made guys beneath him and if so, how many? Im talking about a real crew, not some operational stuff....next, we will see the size of the area which that same individual controlled...we will also see if that individual was direct with the boss or followed protocol etc.

Sometimes you dont have straight answers about everything and thats why you have to put a little bit of sweat so you can find the answer.

I already gave one good example...i always knew that Phil D'Andrea was in charge of the Loop, First Ward and South Side and years later i found a doc which confirmed the whole situation....i was previously lucky? I dont think so since i have at least a dozen of additional "lucky" examples such as that one.

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

No. We have already seen the Outfits hierarchy multiple times and they never had an official consigliere position and its wrong to place Ricca and Accardo on that position since both were commission reps and set all policies, and if someone so much likes to push that type of Sicilian position in Chicago, maybe he or she should only look at guys like Humphreys and Alex but the main problem is obvious since they were non-Italians, controlled their own territories and crews and were additionally involved in creating policies for the organization along with Ricca and Accardo.

Same thing applies for the Sicilian traditional rituals, there were none in Chicago during the old daysand this is also confirmed.

They had non-Italians in their ranks.

They were territorial.

Lots of differences which had nothing to do with CN

You said right in the middle of your usual long rambling postings " For me, the only thing that would confirm they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Maggadino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere". Otherwise, it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position". That's what you said originally.

So going by this idiotic logic, then a Chinese guy could have been a made member according to you in the Outfit because no inside member has said "There is no made member of the Outfit who is Chinese".

Anyway, Nick Calabrese laid out the whole structure of the Outfit & never mentioned a "Consigliere". So we do have an actual made member talking about the structure of the Outfit. If they didn't have a consigliere position after 1980, then they most certainly never had one in 1931.

[Confederate]

Booyah

This is one quite interesting file which confirms the elimination of the Sicilian influence in Chicago

Sicilian influence gone.

[Confederate]

The American LCN was based upon greed, power & money. The "cultural" aspect of it was very secondary. Let's get real about it & not over "romanticize" the cultural part. Do you think Joe Massera & Salvatore Maranzano really cared that much about "Sicilian Culture" before anything else? If that were true, then they would not have tried to kill each other, now would they? To focus obsessively about the cultural aspect of the American LCN is a Joseph Bonnano fairy tale. When it came right down to it, all that really mattered was power, money & a lot of betrayal by a bunch of sociopaths, some worse than others.

[Villain]

The American LCN was based upon greed, power & money. The "cultural" aspect of it was very secondary. Let's get real about it & not over "romanticize" the cultural part. Do you think Joe Massera & Salvatore Maranzano really cared that much about "Sicilian Culture" before anything else? If that were true, then they would not have tried to kill each other, now would they? To focus obsessively about the cultural aspect of the American LCN is a Joseph Bonnano fairy tale. When it came right down to it, all that really mattered was power, money & a lot of betrayal by a bunch of sociopaths, some worse than others.

Few weeks ago i watched the doc about Ken Eto and it is interesting to note that at the beginning the feds thought that his case was small potatoes since he wasnt Italian, but in the end it came out that Eto knew a lot of stuff regarding the inner workings of the Outfit and also had close connections with the Genoveses, and so they labeled him as high ranking Oriental member of the Mob lol

In addition, Eto labeled Accardo as the "boss of all bosses" of the Chicago syndicate, with Aiuppa and Cerone right beneath him

[PolackTony]

The American LCN was based upon greed, power & money. The "cultural" aspect of it was very secondary. Let's get real about it & not over "romanticize" the cultural part. Do you think Joe Massera & Salvatore Maranzano really cared that much about "Sicilian Culture" before anything else? If that were true, then they would not have tried to kill each other, now would they? To focus obsessively about the cultural aspect of the American LCN is a Joseph Bonnano fairy tale. When it came right down to it, all that really mattered was power, money & a lot of betrayal by a bunch of sociopaths, some worse than others.

Few weeks ago i watched the doc about Ken Eto and it is interesting to note that at the beginning the feds thought that his case was small potatoes since he wasnt Italian, but in the end it came out that Eto knew a lot of stuff regarding the inner workings of the Outfit and also had close connections with the Genoveses, and so they labeled him as high ranking Oriental member of the Mob lol

In addition, Eto labeled Accardo as the "boss of all bosses" of the Chicago syndicate, with Aiuppa and Cerone right beneath him

Yes, it's a very Chicago story that we had a Japanese guy working for the Mafia running the Puerto Rican "bolita" racket. Not just an accident of history of course, but the result of the particular history of ethnic succession and settlement in the Old Town area (despite the massive gentrification some of the Japanese are still in Old Town. I used to work with a bunch of them. Super blue collar, harcdore Chicago accent guys. Needless to say, but the Sicilians and PRs mostly left a long time ago).

Eto's use of "boss of all bosses" is an interesting and I think telling phrase. Helps to further underscore the model that Chicago worked as something close to an affiliation of distinct "families", with a committee of territorial bosses and high level capos under a centralized executive directed by a top boss. In this way, not so different from the pre-Commission American Mafia, though I think that if Chicago had something like a similar model it's likely attributable to the legacy of Capone's absorption of allied organizations (e.g. -- the Loop/Near South/Cicero directly from the Capone gang, Taylor St from the 42's, the North side and the Heights from the old Sicilian family(ies), Grand Ave/EP from the Circus Gang boys).

[Villain]

Eto's use of "boss of all bosses" is an interesting and I think telling phrase. Helps to further underscore the model that Chicago worked as something close to an affiliation of distinct "families", with a committee of territorial bosses and high level capos under a centralized executive directed by a top boss. In this way, not so different from the pre-Commission American Mafia, though I think that if Chicago had something like a similar model it's likely attributable to the legacy of Capone's absorption of allied organizations (e.g. -- the Loop/Near South/Cicero directly from the Capone gang, Taylor St from the 42's, the North side and the Heights from the old Sicilian family(ies), Grand Ave/EP from the Circus Gang boys).

It was like four Barons under one top admin, who controlled four specific large areas or each "providence" had a Baron with his own district bosses or capos reporting to him at the time. According to some sources, some Camorra chiefs, both men and women especially from around the Castellammare di Stabia area, were referenced as "Barons" or "Baronesses" and they transferred orders to the rest of the district chiefs, which were previously received by the boss himself. We also have the Pittsburgh family using the term "capo squadrone", a position that was above the capodecina and caporegime guys, but below the boss and underboss. Some say that during one period the Genoveses also had three territorial bosses who were above the rest of the capos or something like that....same story goes for their one time top administration...

I also think that similar structures were seen in Sicily but besides using this type of hierarchy, we must not forget that the Chicago Outfit was completely Americanized organization by giving some of those same high level spots to non-Italians, and on top of that, during the period between 1948 and 1955 they further upgraded their organization by adding two top level positions, such as the top boss or "boss of all bosses" position, followed by another senior advisor/semi-retired spot.

Back in the days I used to read that Ricca kept few of the top positions reserved only for the Italians, such as the top boss spot followed by the boss and underboss spots, since we have dozens of evidences that the senior advisor position was often occupied by non-Italians, same as some of the territorial boss positions, especially from around the South Side aka the old Capone faction, and also numerous crew boss positions also taken by non-Italians with many made guys being beneath them. John Moore aka Claude Maddox wasnt Aiuppa's "OPERATIONAL" boss, but instead he was his official mentor and official boss, since both Aiuppa and Bobby Ansani couldnt lift a finger without Maddox's approval during one time (around three decades).

[Confederate]

Eto's use of "boss of all bosses" is an interesting and I think telling phrase. Helps to further underscore the model that Chicago worked as something close to an affiliation of distinct "families", with a committee of territorial bosses and high level capos under a centralized executive directed by a top boss. In this way, not so different from the pre-Commission American Mafia, though I think that if Chicago had something like a similar model it's likely attributable to the legacy of Capone's absorption of allied organizations (e.g. -- the Loop/Near South/Cicero directly from the Capone gang, Taylor St from the 42's, the North side and the Heights from the old Sicilian family(ies), Grand Ave/EP from the Circus Gang boys).

It was like four Barons under one top admin, who controlled four specific large areas or each "providence" had a Baron with his own district bosses or capos reporting to him at the time. According to some sources, some Camorra chiefs, both men and women especially from Castellammare di Stabia area, were referenced as "Barons" or "Baronesses" and they transferred orders to the rest of the district chiefs, which were previously received by the boss himself. We also have the Pittsburgh family using the term "capo squadrone", a position that was above the capodecina and caporegime guys, but below the boss and underboss. Some say that during one period the Genoveses also had three territorial bosses who were above the rest of the capos or something like that....same story goes for their one time top administration...

I also think that similar structures were seen in Sicily but besides using this type of hierarchy, we must not forget that the Chicago Outfit was completely Americanized organization by giving some of those same high level spots to non-Italians, and on top of that, during the period between 1948 and 1955 they further upgraded their organization by adding two top level positions, such as the top boss or "boss of all bosses" position, followed by another senior advisor/semi-retired spot.

Back in the days I used to read that Ricca kept few of the top positions reserved only for the Italians, such as the top boss spot followed by the boss and underboss spots, since we have dozens of evidences that the senior advisor position was often occupied by non-Italians, same as some of the territorial boss positions, especially from around the South Side aka the old Capone faction, and also numerous crew boss positions also taken by non-Italians with many made guys being beneath them. John Moore aka Claude Maddox wasn't Aiuppa's "OPERATIONAL" boss, but instead he was his official mentor and official boss, since both Aiuppa and Bobby Ansani couldn't lift a finger without Maddox's approval during one time (around three decades).

Yes, similar but definitely "different" from many of the other Families. The big reason is that The Outfit "evolved" from a "different" beginning. That's the key to the whole thing. In the long run, nobody cared if there was a difference in structure or if the terminology used was somewhat different. Only outsiders decades later would put so much emphasis on trying to make those differences all the same. The prime motivation of the Outfit was making money, not debating about titles. I'm sure when the Bosses around the Country got together in a Commission meeting, the LAST thing they would talk about would be exactly how Chicago was structured or what titles were used to describe power relationships in the Outfit. Not everything revolved around being "Sicilian". There were other influences from Naples & Calabria involved as described in the above posting. These guys were smart enough to understand some differences & only cared about how they could have more power, more money & not be compromised by informants or worse, get killed. Nobody at the Commission meeting in 1931 demanded that Capone make any "changes" to the Outfit so they could understand all the intricacies of it better. Nobody cared & it was irrelevant to reality.

[aleksandrored]

I know the topic is a little old, but it was rereading and I had some doubts:
The Chicago Mafia Boss in the 1920s was Anthony D'Andrea, followed by Mike Merlo, then Antonio Lombardo, and after Lombardo's death it was Patsy Lorordo, but at that time Capone, who was a capodecina of Masseria, was at war with Aiello to control and absorb the guanges, did he achieve this in 1930, but was he only recognized as chief by Maranzano in 1931? that's right?

If Capone Mob and the North Side were not part of the Chicago mafia, were they isolated and separate gangs?

[Antiliar]

I know the topic is a little old, but it was rereading and I had some doubts:
The Chicago Mafia Boss in the 1920s was Anthony D'Andrea, followed by Mike Merlo, then Antonio Lombardo, and after Lombardo's death it was Patsy Lorordo, but at that time Capone, who was a capodecina of Masseria, was at war with Aiello to control and absorb the guanges, did he achieve this in 1930, but was he only recognized as chief by Maranzano in 1931? that's right?

If Capone Mob and the North Side were not part of the Chicago mafia, were they isolated and separate gangs?

Here's the list of bosses:
Mariano Zagone (c1902-1909, killed)
Rosario Dispenza (1909-1914, killed)
Anthony D'Andrea (1914-1921, killed)
Mike Merlo (1921-1924, died of cancer)
Tony Lombardo (1925-1928, killed)
Pasquale Lolordo (1928, killed)
Giuseppe Giunta (1928-1929, killed)
Joe Aiello (1929-1930, killed)
Toto Loverde (1930-1931, demoted and later killed)
Absorbed into (Al Capone) Chicago Outfit, 1931.

Aiello was Lombardo's underboss, but he separated from Lombardo because of Lombardo's support of Capone. Lolordo, Giunta and Loverde were puppets of Capone. Aiello (a North Sider) created his own faction (the details of which are unknown) that was responsible for killing Lolordo. He took over from Giunta (who betrayed Capone and was killed for it) while Capone and Rio were in prison, but the Outfit killed him anyway in October 1930. We don't know why Loverde was killed, but he had already been demoted by then.

[aleksandrored]

Thanks for the explanation man.

[motorfab]

Samoots Ammatuna was not considered Boss in 1925 ? Or did he get killed before he became the recognized boss ? I never really knew if he was or not ..