Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by gohnjotti »

SonnyBlackstein wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:14 pm Thanks for the update ms. Very interesting mafia subject currently doing the rounds, appreciated.

Personally I think Frankie Loc should be released. Because he didn’t outwardly condemn the DiBono hit he CONDONE’S it??? Ridiculous logic.

Silence = guilt now?
Bullshit.
Well, same thing happened with Carmine Persico. Not to open a can of worms, but I think even Fred DeChristophers testified for the government that Carmine Persico voted against the Carmine Galante case, and that Carmine Persico told this to DeChristophers while Persico was lamming it at his house.
The fact that the Commission voted against him, and the fact that Persico - as a member of the Commission - went along with the Commission's ruling by default made him guilty of Galante's murder by the same logic that makes Frank LoCascio guilty of the DiBono hit.

It's a very risky subject we're dealing with because, at the same time, there have been plenty of cases that seem to establish that just because a boss is a boss, doesn't mean he is guilty of every hit under his command. Alphonse Persico and John DeRoss were found guilty of the Cutolo murder, but not guilty of the Campanella attempted murder. The jury reasoned that even though the evidence showed that Persico and DeRoss may have indeed sanctioned Campanella's murder, the attempted murder itself was DeMartino's idea and DeMartino's plot. They were found not guilty on that count. The distinction seems to lie in whether or not Persico and DeRoss directly caused Campanella's attempted shooting. If they hadn't sanctioned it, would DeMartino go through with it anyways?

Similar verdict happened with Thomas Gioeli. I think the jury saw that Gioeli was indeed the street boss of the Colombo family (and therefore convicted him of racketeering conspiracy), and the evidence overwhelmingly proved that the star witnesses on the stand - Dino Calabro, Joe Competiello and Sebby Saracino - all worked for Gioeli during the time they committed multiple murders. But, the jury didn't believe that Gioeli was guilty of the actual murders himself, apart from the murders that he directly oversaw and planned, like the Frank Marasa hit and the John Minerva hit.
Ralph Dols? That wasn't Gioeli's hit, according to the jury. Gioeli himself did not personally order the hit, and did not personally carry it out.
William Cutolo? Same thing.
Michael Burnside? Same thing.

In some cases, like Cutolo's murder, Gioeli was actually there. On the scene. For the killing. But the hit was ordered by Allie Persico and committed by, depending on who you believe, Dino Calabro or Dino Saracino. So even though Gioeli was the middleman, he didn't necessarily "order" the hit, according to the jury.

I guess there isn't really a legal standard for what is under a mob boss' jurisdiction. Naturally, you can't attribute every murder in a gang to its leader. That would be a pretty fast-and-loose way to use the law. It's hard to link a random Bloods murder in the Bronx to the leader of the gang in LA, or wherever they're based. But at the same time, it's pretty well-established that LCN bosses have to "sanction" hits within their family. And whether "sanctioning" a hit is legal or not is apparently still up for debate in the court of law, since juries have delivered mixed verdicts while relying on similar evidence.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by Confederate »

gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm I guess there isn't really a legal standard for what is under a mob boss' jurisdiction. Naturally, you can't attribute every murder in a gang to its leader. That would be a pretty fast-and-loose way to use the law. It's hard to link a random Bloods murder in the Bronx to the leader of the gang in LA, or wherever they're based. But at the same time, it's pretty well-established that LCN bosses have to "sanction" hits within their family. And whether "sanctioning" a hit is legal or not is apparently still up for debate in the court of law, since juries have delivered mixed verdicts while relying on similar evidence.
Sorry, Cannot even come close to comparing a highly organized disciplined Mafia Family to some little independent neighborhood Bloods Set who randomly try to kill the next neighborhood Bloods Set a few blocks away with no permission from any leader over anything.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by mafiastudent »

SonnyBlackstein wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:14 pm Thanks for the update ms. Very interesting mafia subject currently doing the rounds, appreciated.

Personally I think Frankie Loc should be released. Because he didn’t outwardly condemn the DiBono hit he CONDONE’S it??? Ridiculous logic.

Silence = guilt now?
Bullshit.
You're welcome. I have to admit, I'm surprised by your response...lol.

I'll be following up on this..I'm just waiting to see if there's a ruling...maybe sometime this week. Plus I have to get through 375 pages of government reading. Lots of testimony from the trial in there.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by Dwalin2014 »

gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm In some cases, like Cutolo's murder, Gioeli was actually there. On the scene. For the killing. But the hit was ordered by Allie Persico and committed by, depending on who you believe, Dino Calabro or Dino Saracino. So even though Gioeli was the middleman, he didn't necessarily "order" the hit, according to the jury.
But there are middlemen in many murder for hire cases, even not organized crime related. If you ask somebody to find a hitman for you, does this person not share any degree of responsibility? In most of the cases I read about or watched documentaries about, the middleman got away free only if he made a deal with the prosecution and testified against others. It's honestly new to me (and imo it doesn't make sense at all) to acquit the middleman in a murder for hire case.
gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm I guess there isn't really a legal standard for what is under a mob boss' jurisdiction. Naturally, you can't attribute every murder in a gang to its leader. That would be a pretty fast-and-loose way to use the law. It's hard to link a random Bloods murder in the Bronx to the leader of the gang in LA, or wherever they're based. But at the same time, it's pretty well-established that LCN bosses have to "sanction" hits within their family. And whether "sanctioning" a hit is legal or not is apparently still up for debate in the court of law, since juries have delivered mixed verdicts while relying on similar evidence.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Adolfo Bruno murder case, wasn't it Arillotta who came up with the idea of the hit, while Artie Nigro only authorized it? Still it made him guilty, because without his ok, Arillotta wouldn't have "dared" to carry it out.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

Post by bert »

Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:52 pm
mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm The FBI is about to be EXPOSED....So it makes me wonder, if Gravano didn't testify truthfully about all he did to put all those 32+ guys away like he did....does that mean that alllll of those cases should be reopened, even the ones for the guys who already served their time?
A serious question (no intention of provoking you):

Is there even 1 single mafia conviction in the USA history which you would consider "safe" and "fair"? First individual cases, like Crea and Londonio, then you are saying that 32+ people put away by Gravano should be freed...What will be next? Freedom for ALL mafia members?

I honestly mean no offense, but it seems like you believe that EVERY SINGLE mafioso is a victim of the system...Being a member of the mafia may not be a crime by itself, but it shouldn't be a "get out of jail free card" either.
You think every single person accused of being in the Mafia is guilty, MS never said all are innocent. Not to provoke you, but have you ever said a single person was innocent,t or deserved to be released?
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

Post by Dwalin2014 »

bert wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:12 pm
Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:52 pm
mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm The FBI is about to be EXPOSED....So it makes me wonder, if Gravano didn't testify truthfully about all he did to put all those 32+ guys away like he did....does that mean that alllll of those cases should be reopened, even the ones for the guys who already served their time?
A serious question (no intention of provoking you):

Is there even 1 single mafia conviction in the USA history which you would consider "safe" and "fair"? First individual cases, like Crea and Londonio, then you are saying that 32+ people put away by Gravano should be freed...What will be next? Freedom for ALL mafia members?

I honestly mean no offense, but it seems like you believe that EVERY SINGLE mafioso is a victim of the system...Being a member of the mafia may not be a crime by itself, but it shouldn't be a "get out of jail free card" either.
You think every single person accused of being in the Mafia is guilty, MS never said all are innocent. Not to provoke you, but have you ever said a single person was innocent,t or deserved to be released?
Well, if you really want an example: 4 guys framed by Joe Barboza's testimony were innocent (although Tameleo was guilty of another murder for which he got a ridiculously short sentence of 5 years). But the other 3 didn't deserve that.

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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by Confederate »

Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:56 pm
gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm In some cases, like Cutolo's murder, Gioeli was actually there. On the scene. For the killing. But the hit was ordered by Allie Persico and committed by, depending on who you believe, Dino Calabro or Dino Saracino. So even though Gioeli was the middleman, he didn't necessarily "order" the hit, according to the jury.
But there are middlemen in many murder for hire cases, even not organized crime related. If you ask somebody to find a hitman for you, does this person not share any degree of responsibility? In most of the cases I read about or watched documentaries about, the middleman got away free only if he made a deal with the prosecution and testified against others. It's honestly new to me (and imo it doesn't make sense at all) to acquit the middleman in a murder for hire case.
gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm I guess there isn't really a legal standard for what is under a mob boss' jurisdiction. Naturally, you can't attribute every murder in a gang to its leader. That would be a pretty fast-and-loose way to use the law. It's hard to link a random Bloods murder in the Bronx to the leader of the gang in LA, or wherever they're based. But at the same time, it's pretty well-established that LCN bosses have to "sanction" hits within their family. And whether "sanctioning" a hit is legal or not is apparently still up for debate in the court of law, since juries have delivered mixed verdicts while relying on similar evidence.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Adolfo Bruno murder case, wasn't it Arillotta who came up with the idea of the hit, while Artie Nigro only authorized it? Still it made him guilty, because without his ok, Arillotta wouldn't have "dared" to carry it out.
RICO definition if you google it:
"Under RICO, A person who has committed at least two acts of Racketeering activity drawn from a list of 35 crimes (27 federal & 8 state) within a 10 year period can be charged with racketeering if such acts are related in one of four specific ways to an "Enterprise". Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 & sentenced to 20 years in prison PER racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill gotten gains & interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity".

Very powerful tool for the Prosecution & covers a large range of circumstances.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

Post by mafiastudent »

Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:16 pm
bert wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:12 pm
Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:52 pm
mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm The FBI is about to be EXPOSED....So it makes me wonder, if Gravano didn't testify truthfully about all he did to put all those 32+ guys away like he did....does that mean that alllll of those cases should be reopened, even the ones for the guys who already served their time?
A serious question (no intention of provoking you):

Is there even 1 single mafia conviction in the USA history which you would consider "safe" and "fair"? First individual cases, like Crea and Londonio, then you are saying that 32+ people put away by Gravano should be freed...What will be next? Freedom for ALL mafia members?

I honestly mean no offense, but it seems like you believe that EVERY SINGLE mafioso is a victim of the system...Being a member of the mafia may not be a crime by itself, but it shouldn't be a "get out of jail free card" either.
You think every single person accused of being in the Mafia is guilty, MS never said all are innocent. Not to provoke you, but have you ever said a single person was innocent,t or deserved to be released?
Well, if you really want an example: 4 guys framed by Joe Barboza's testimony were innocent (although Tameleo was guilty of another murder for which he got a ridiculously short sentence of 5 years). But the other 3 didn't deserve that.

Happy now?
Joseph Barboza...my favorite person in the world (sarcastic). In that case he was told to lie by the government. There were six guys who were convicted. 4 of them were 100% innocent (I talk about this in my Crea article)...I think 2 of them died and the other 2 had already served 30 years in prison when it was revealed. And the prosecutors were never brought to justice.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

Post by bert »

Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:16 pm
bert wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:12 pm
Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:52 pm
mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm The FBI is about to be EXPOSED....So it makes me wonder, if Gravano didn't testify truthfully about all he did to put all those 32+ guys away like he did....does that mean that alllll of those cases should be reopened, even the ones for the guys who already served their time?
A serious question (no intention of provoking you):

Is there even 1 single mafia conviction in the USA history which you would consider "safe" and "fair"? First individual cases, like Crea and Londonio, then you are saying that 32+ people put away by Gravano should be freed...What will be next? Freedom for ALL mafia members?

I honestly mean no offense, but it seems like you believe that EVERY SINGLE mafioso is a victim of the system...Being a member of the mafia may not be a crime by itself, but it shouldn't be a "get out of jail free card" either.
You think every single person accused of being in the Mafia is guilty, MS never said all are innocent. Not to provoke you, but have you ever said a single person was innocent,t or deserved to be released?
Well, if you really want an example: 4 guys framed by Joe Barboza's testimony were innocent (although Tameleo was guilty of another murder for which he got a ridiculously short sentence of 5 years). But the other 3 didn't deserve that.

Happy now?
Fair answer. I believe because Tamleo got a sentence in one case that you feel was too short I don't like giving him time for something he did not do in another case.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by mafiastudent »

Confederate wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:17 pm
Dwalin2014 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:56 pm
gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm In some cases, like Cutolo's murder, Gioeli was actually there. On the scene. For the killing. But the hit was ordered by Allie Persico and committed by, depending on who you believe, Dino Calabro or Dino Saracino. So even though Gioeli was the middleman, he didn't necessarily "order" the hit, according to the jury.
But there are middlemen in many murder for hire cases, even not organized crime related. If you ask somebody to find a hitman for you, does this person not share any degree of responsibility? In most of the cases I read about or watched documentaries about, the middleman got away free only if he made a deal with the prosecution and testified against others. It's honestly new to me (and imo it doesn't make sense at all) to acquit the middleman in a murder for hire case.
gohnjotti wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:31 pm I guess there isn't really a legal standard for what is under a mob boss' jurisdiction. Naturally, you can't attribute every murder in a gang to its leader. That would be a pretty fast-and-loose way to use the law. It's hard to link a random Bloods murder in the Bronx to the leader of the gang in LA, or wherever they're based. But at the same time, it's pretty well-established that LCN bosses have to "sanction" hits within their family. And whether "sanctioning" a hit is legal or not is apparently still up for debate in the court of law, since juries have delivered mixed verdicts while relying on similar evidence.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Adolfo Bruno murder case, wasn't it Arillotta who came up with the idea of the hit, while Artie Nigro only authorized it? Still it made him guilty, because without his ok, Arillotta wouldn't have "dared" to carry it out.
RICO definition if you google it:
"Under RICO, A person who has committed at least two acts of Racketeering activity drawn from a list of 35 crimes (27 federal & 8 state) within a 10 year period can be charged with racketeering if such acts are related in one of four specific ways to an "Enterprise". Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 & sentenced to 20 years in prison PER racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill gotten gains & interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity".

Very powerful tool for the Prosecution & covers a large range of circumstances.
The RICO law is a very questionable law where many issues have been raised because it can also be used in other cases other than OC. There is much documented evidence of the government abusing the RICO in civil cases and elsewhere. And it has been written about by judges and lawyers alike about the constitutionality of it.

And as you stated, the fact that the law gives them solo much leeway to basically try to convict on whatever they feel like, is obviously something that should be looked at as a matter of Constitutionality.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

Post by mafiastudent »

*unconstitutionality
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing.

Post by Dwalin2014 »

mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:19 pm Joseph Barboza...my favorite person in the world (sarcastic). In that case he was told to lie by the government. There were six guys who were convicted. 4 of them were 100% innocent (I talk about this in my Crea article)...I think 2 of them died and the other 2 had already served 30 years in prison when it was revealed. And the prosecutors were never brought to justice.
I agree about 3 of them, but as I said Tameleo was also convicted for the Marfeo-Melei murder conspiracy (for which he was never said to be innocent), and got only 5 years. He is considered to be a victim of injustice because he died in prison for the Deegan murder he didn't commit. But, if he got what he deserved for the Marfeo-Melei case, the result would have been the same (him dying in jail), with the difference that there wouldn't have been any wrongful conviction money payment.

That said, I agree Barboza was a piece of trash anyway.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by Confederate »

mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:22 pm
Confederate wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:17 pm
RICO definition if you google it:
"Under RICO, A person who has committed at least two acts of Racketeering activity drawn from a list of 35 crimes (27 federal & 8 state) within a 10 year period can be charged with racketeering if such acts are related in one of four specific ways to an "Enterprise". Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 & sentenced to 20 years in prison PER racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill gotten gains & interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity".

Very powerful tool for the Prosecution & covers a large range of circumstances.
The RICO law is a very questionable law where many issues have been raised because it can also be used in other cases other than OC. There is much documented evidence of the government abusing the RICO in civil cases and elsewhere. And it has been written about by judges and lawyers alike about the constitutionality of it.

And as you stated, the fact that the law gives them solo much leeway to basically try to convict on whatever they feel like, is obviously something that should be looked at as a matter of Constitutionality.
1). Where is the documented evidence that RICO was abused in a Civil Case? A Liberal "Soft On Crime Judge" can write about a lot of stuff that won't change anything.

2). The RICO Act is used to convict a pattern of Racketeering, not anything else. It has a broad range because Racketeering Enterprises are complicated Conspiracies that involve several elements. if you eliminated the Rico Act & you eliminated Informants from testifying who can be rigorously cross examined by tough Defense Lawyers anyway, then you might as well just make Organized Crime legal & nobody would ever get convicted of anything according to your philosophy. Organized Crime would run the whole Country untouched.
" Everything Woke turns to shit".
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by mafiastudent »

Confederate wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 10:34 pm
mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:22 pm
Confederate wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:17 pm
RICO definition if you google it:
"Under RICO, A person who has committed at least two acts of Racketeering activity drawn from a list of 35 crimes (27 federal & 8 state) within a 10 year period can be charged with racketeering if such acts are related in one of four specific ways to an "Enterprise". Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 & sentenced to 20 years in prison PER racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill gotten gains & interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity".

Very powerful tool for the Prosecution & covers a large range of circumstances.
The RICO law is a very questionable law where many issues have been raised because it can also be used in other cases other than OC. There is much documented evidence of the government abusing the RICO in civil cases and elsewhere. And it has been written about by judges and lawyers alike about the constitutionality of it.

And as you stated, the fact that the law gives them solo much leeway to basically try to convict on whatever they feel like, is obviously something that should be looked at as a matter of Constitutionality.
1). Where is the documented evidence that RICO was abused in a Civil Case? A Liberal "Soft On Crime Judge" can write about a lot of stuff that won't change anything.

2). The RICO Act is used to convict a pattern of Racketeering, not anything else. It has a broad range because Racketeering Enterprises are complicated Conspiracies that involve several elements. if you eliminated the Rico Act & you eliminated Informants from testifying who can be rigorously cross examined by tough Defense Lawyers anyway, then you might as well just make Organized Crime legal & nobody would ever get convicted of anything according to your philosophy. Organized Crime would run the whole Country untouched.
All you have to do is a google search on RICO civil cases abuse and there will be a ton of scholarly articles. And before you start characterizing any judge that speaks out about RICO as liberal, perhaps you should check your facts first. You're basing thing on assumptions without facts.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavl ... 7b361f2421

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/busi ... -rico.html

I did a little legwork for you using the terms I suggested...these are the first two articles that popped up...but dig a little deeper and you can the find the scholarly articles I mentioned.
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Re: Frank Locascio Evidentiary Hearing

Post by mafiastudent »

mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 10:37 pm
Confederate wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 10:34 pm
mafiastudent wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:22 pm
Confederate wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:17 pm
RICO definition if you google it:
"Under RICO, A person who has committed at least two acts of Racketeering activity drawn from a list of 35 crimes (27 federal & 8 state) within a 10 year period can be charged with racketeering if such acts are related in one of four specific ways to an "Enterprise". Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 & sentenced to 20 years in prison PER racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill gotten gains & interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity".

Very powerful tool for the Prosecution & covers a large range of circumstances.
The RICO law is a very questionable law where many issues have been raised because it can also be used in other cases other than OC. There is much documented evidence of the government abusing the RICO in civil cases and elsewhere. And it has been written about by judges and lawyers alike about the constitutionality of it.

And as you stated, the fact that the law gives them solo much leeway to basically try to convict on whatever they feel like, is obviously something that should be looked at as a matter of Constitutionality.
1). Where is the documented evidence that RICO was abused in a Civil Case? A Liberal "Soft On Crime Judge" can write about a lot of stuff that won't change anything.

2). The RICO Act is used to convict a pattern of Racketeering, not anything else. It has a broad range because Racketeering Enterprises are complicated Conspiracies that involve several elements. if you eliminated the Rico Act & you eliminated Informants from testifying who can be rigorously cross examined by tough Defense Lawyers anyway, then you might as well just make Organized Crime legal & nobody would ever get convicted of anything according to your philosophy. Organized Crime would run the whole Country untouched.
All you have to do is a google search on RICO civil cases abuse and there will be a ton of scholarly articles. And before you start characterizing any judge that speaks out about RICO as liberal, perhaps you should check your facts first. You're basing thing on assumptions without facts.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavl ... 7b361f2421

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/busi ... -rico.html

I did a little legwork for you using the terms I suggested...these are the first two articles that popped up...but dig a little deeper and you can the find the scholarly articles I mentioned.
Or you can access scholarly articles easier via a university library.
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