Transcript of Patriarca and Bianco

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

Why did he want the books closed?


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If the other families are weaker, the Gambino's
can control and assume more rackets for their
members. Machiavellian thinking....

[B.]

The books were closed before Gambino became boss.

[yatescj7781]

also the date in which they opened the books is debatable. I have seen 2 sources now of 2 different Colombo members being made in 1975.

[Pogo The Clown]

Mike Franzeses 1975 claim has been disproven. One of the guys who he claimed was made with him was in prison in 1975. Also he claimed Andy Russo was a Capo at his ceremony but Russo himself wasn't made until 1976.


Pogo

[dixiemafia]

Bianco was made when the books were closed too

[yatescj7781]

Mike Franzeses 1975 claim has been disproven. One of the guys who he claimed was made with him was in prison in 1975. Also he claimed Andy Russo was a Capo at his ceremony but Russo himself wasn't made until 1976.


Pogo

Who was the guy he claimed to be made with? Getting your making date wrong I just don't understand. It's one of the most important days of your life.I can see if he was mistaken about one of the guys there. Of all the documents I have seen I believe the Gambinos and Bonannos started in 76. The Luccheses, Genovese and Colombos before that. Not counting the Allie Boy Persico getting made outside of New York and transferring thing. I found another document from 1975 claiming Shorty Spero was made the night before. Genovese and Lucchese as early as 1974.

[yatescj7781]

Bianco was made when the books were closed too

Vincent Cafaro alledgedly made by Genovese Family in 1974 at a restaurant, Casso claimed he was made in 1974 by the Lucchese.

[yatescj7781]

George Barone also claims early 70s. I've seen no account of anybody in the Bonanno's or Gambino's being made before 1976. I have seen at least 3 accounts of Colombo's(1972,1975), 2 accounts of Genovese(1974,early 70s) and 1 account of Lucchese (1974) that I can recall at this moment. Which coincides with Family Leadership at that time.

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't recall who it was but one of the guy's Franzese was made with (Vito Guzzo, Jimmy Angelino, Sal Micciota, Joe Peraino and John Minerva) was in prison in 1975. JD discovered the info as well as other things that showed this ceremony couldn't have happened before 1977.


Cafaro's 1974 claim has also been disproven. Someone (I think HK if memory serves) discovered that the restaurant Cafaro claimed he was made in (El Cortile on Mulberry Street) didn't open until 1976.


I think they just misremembered.


Pogo

[yatescj7781]

I don't recall who it was but one of the guy's Franzese was made with (Vito Guzzo, Jimmy Angelino, Sal Micciota, Joe Peraino and John Minerva) was in prison in 1975. JD discovered the info as well as other things that showed this ceremony couldn't have happened before 1977.


Cafaro's 1974 claim has also been disproven. Someone (I think HK if memory serves) discovered that the restaurant Cafaro claimed he was made in (El Cortile on Mulberry Street) didn't open until 1976.


I think they just misremembered.


Pogo

What about Barones? Or Casso. Have never seen cafaros account disproven as he was proposing dinapoli to be made in late 70s. Colombos were proposing joe lane to be made in 73. It's a shame Scarpa files went dark from late 74 to 80. What's you guys position on Big Allie boy getting made in 72?

[Pogo The Clown]

Here is the post in question showing how Cafaro could not have been made in 1974.

JD, you say that the books were officially reopened in 1976. But what about Vincent Cafaro´s statement that he was made in 1974 with Patsy Genese? The only explanation of this would be that Cafaro (just like Michael Franzese) was wrong about the year. What is your opinion on this?

In 1988 he said he was made in 1974, then at a trial in 1991 he supposedly puts the date at 1971. For other CWs a good way to narrow it down is when they reference events with fixed dates to compare it to (ie Salvatore Vitale confirming he was made after the Bonventre murder putting it in 1984). I'd like to read more info from Cafaro to see how well his recall is when it comes to dates.

It definitely looks like Cafaro was not made in 1974, but sometime after 1975. According to his own testimony:

"He [Tony Buckaloo] took me to the El Cortile [Il Cortile] Restaurant on Mulberry Street where Buckaloo and I went downstairs to meet with Funzi Tieri..."

I found out that Il Cortile was not in business until 1975 and that the location had previously been a bedding shop before it became a restaurant.

"Mr. Esposito, 47 years old, began his duties nine years after his uncle bought the Mulberry property in 1975. The family turned the bedding shop on the ground floor into a restaurant serving traditional Italian fare such as penne alla vodka, as well as its signature lobster ravioli dish."

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014 ... 3591998910

[yatescj7781]

Here is the post in question showing how Cafaro could not have been made in 1974.

JD, you say that the books were officially reopened in 1976. But what about Vincent Cafaro´s statement that he was made in 1974 with Patsy Genese? The only explanation of this would be that Cafaro (just like Michael Franzese) was wrong about the year. What is your opinion on this?

In 1988 he said he was made in 1974, then at a trial in 1991 he supposedly puts the date at 1971. For other CWs a good way to narrow it down is when they reference events with fixed dates to compare it to (ie Salvatore Vitale confirming he was made after the Bonventre murder putting it in 1984). I'd like to read more info from Cafaro to see how well his recall is when it comes to dates.

It definitely looks like Cafaro was not made in 1974, but sometime after 1975. According to his own testimony:

"He [Tony Buckaloo] took me to the El Cortile [Il Cortile] Restaurant on Mulberry Street where Buckaloo and I went downstairs to meet with Funzi Tieri..."

I found out that Il Cortile was not in business until 1975 and that the location had previously been a bedding shop before it became a restaurant.

"Mr. Esposito, 47 years old, began his duties nine years after his uncle bought the Mulberry property in 1975. The family turned the bedding shop on the ground floor into a restaurant serving traditional Italian fare such as penne alla vodka, as well as its signature lobster ravioli dish."

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014 ... 3591998910

I respect your opinion, but that is really not a source Pogo. What is the guy that Franzese claimed to be made with that was in jail. Castellano ordered Amato's death and Vitale claimed Gotti was there even though he was in jail in 75. Still no source Cafaro or Casso or Barone lied about being made in the early 70s. Or even Franzese was mistaken about Halloween 75 as opposed to 76

[UTC]

"Freddy Cozeteo" Common mistake. That was Gerrie Coetzee.

[Pogo The Clown]

I respect your opinion, but that is really not a source Pogo. What is the guy that Franzese claimed to be made with that was in jail. Castellano ordered Amato's death and Vitale claimed Gotti was there even though he was in jail in 75. Still no source Cafaro or Casso or Barone lied about being made in the early 70s. Or even Franzese was mistaken about Halloween 75 as opposed to 76

How is it not a source? It shows that Cafaro couldn't have been made in 1974 because the restaurant where he was made didn't exist in 1974. I don't think any of these guy's are lying they are just just mistaken about the year. They are human aftell all. People do have faulty memories and can be mistaken about dates, especially if they are recalling events 10+ years in the past. Case in point Joe Bonanno mistakinly saying that Frank Costello was shot in 1955 when it was 1957.


Pogo

[yatescj7781]

I respect your opinion, but that is really not a source Pogo. What is the guy that Franzese claimed to be made with that was in jail. Castellano ordered Amato's death and Vitale claimed Gotti was there even though he was in jail in 75. Still no source Cafaro or Casso or Barone lied about being made in the early 70s. Or even Franzese was mistaken about Halloween 75 as opposed to 76

How is it not a source? It shows that Cafaro couldn't have been made in 1974 because the restaurant where he was made didn't exist in 1974. I don't think any of these guy's are lying they are just just mistaken about the year. They are human aftell all. People do have faulty memories and can be mistaken about dates, especially if they are recalling events 10+ years in the past. Case in point Joe Bonanno mistakinly saying that Frank Costello was shot in 1955 when it was 1957.


Pogo

Joe Bananas wasn't the one shot, I bet Costello could tell you the exact date because HE was the one shot. I never relied just on Franzese, but after I saw the file that said Shorty Spero was made in the fall of 75 and I looked at the date it basically backed up Franzese's claim that he was made Halloween 75.

The Cafaro situation.........He was giving his testimony in the late 80s. It had been the Il Cortile for over a decade by the time he told LE that he was made at that location. He said he was made at what is Il Cortile. that hardly discredits him. Il Cortile was a bedding store before being a restaurant right?

I'm trying to contact that cocksucker Franzese, I want to figure this thing out one way or another.