Is there even a commission anymore?

[Antiliar]

We're really at the mercy of just a small cast of people who have cooperated, been recorded, or written memoirs. A single sentence from one of these guys can completely shift our understanding.

Also not all of these guys are well-spoken. Not everyone is like Michael DiLeonardo, who has the knowledge and wit to break things down in a way that makes sense and the humility to admit the things he doesn't know. Massino comes across that way to me too in his own way which is one reason we're all desperate for an interview or book. We could hear more from him later that puts his info in better context or maybe Sonny's right and we'll see a much more manipulative side of him.

B, to follow up, I'd like your opinion on this reply from Sonny:

D'fede said there were 8 Commission meetings in the 90's.
Gravano cited one in 88
Basicano refers to it in 03 (?)
Violi refers to it in 2018 (?)
Fuck, even Joey boy himself said he was made Boss in 91.

Then there's this:
Bonanno boss Joseph Massino
Bonanno underboss Salvatore Vitale
Genovese captain Lawrence Dentico
Gambino acting boss Peter Gotti
Lucchese acting boss Louis Daidone
Colombo consigliere Joel Cacace

All atrend a meeting to discuss Gino's softball team in Philly.

I haven't investigated these claims, but if it's true that these guys said there were Commission meetings or just that the Commission existed at those different dates, does that affect your opinion? Why or why not? I don't know anything about the Gino's softball meeting, but it does seem interesting. (And just to restate where I'm coming from, I'm an agnostic on this.) Thanks in advance.

[B.]

He was kidding about the softball part, but I don't so much have an opinion as much as I have a desire to figure out what "Commission" means to these sources and whether it is a formally-designated body.

- For 50+ years the Commission was a formal body, not just any time the bosses met to discuss high-level matters. They met all the time and it wasn't considered Commission activity. NYC bosses weren't even guaranteed a seat (Bonannos).

- The Basciano conversation is an important one because he says he was told by a Gambino member that the Commission approved of him as acting boss, with Massino responding that there is no Commission and that Basciano already knows that (was there a prior discussion between them about it?). Basciano agreed and responded that's simply the word the Gambino guy used. Maybe he was more agreeable to Massino's response because that's his boss, but Massino was also in a far better position to know those specifics.

- There seems to be a colloquial use of "Commission" post-1985 that refers to NYC reps approving/discussing various matters, but Massino claims the formal Commission ceased to function after 1985. He used the term himself to refer to post-1985 events in the same April 2011 testimony where he said it no longer exists, which was years after he told Basciano the same thing, so the question is why he would use conflicting language especially when it has no real impact on his story or the meetings being described. It doesn't change the importance of the post-1985 meetings or what was discussed at them.

- Massino said he himself attended the last Commission meeting in November 1985 which puts him in a unique position when it comes to making a distinction between the "true" Commission and what members referred to later. His status as the only official boss in NYC to cooperate also gives him perspective the other sources may not have had. It's not as simple as one source's word vs. several, as their ranks and history with the pre-1985 Commission are different. It's like comparing Valachi's account of the mafia pre-1931 with Nicola Gentile's -- they were both made by 1931 and their time as members overlapped but they have a much different understanding of the organization based on their ranks and experience.

- I brought up the Galante situation earlier and still think it's relevant to this. Many sources reported that Galante was "the" boss of the Bonanno Family and many captains and members were under that impression. Massino says he was even told that when Galante inducted him and believed it until Rastelli told him otherwise. The Commission agreed, therefore Galante should not be considered by researchers as an official boss. The above sources (none of them official bosses) seem to have considered the post-1985 meetings part of the Commission but Massino's account tells us it was defacto and not official.

--

Personally as a researcher I would love to find out there's still been a formal Commission operating all these years. I'm far from a fan of the mafia itself, but if it's going to exist I like interesting things to happen and a formal Commission operating between 1985-2005 is the more interesting option. However, I can't dismiss what Massino said just because other sources have a different POV.

Keep in mind I'm not dismissing the sources who said there were Commission meetings. I never throw a source out unless they are truly an egregious, pathological liar. Even a confirmed liar like Greg Scarpa still reported true information much of the time and we can easily contextualize his lies and their motivation. I'm not convinced Massino lied and have no idea what his motivation to lie would be. The rest of his testimony gives no impression of significant memory issues. With that in mind, we have to take what he said seriously and attempt to reconcile it with the other sources while also giving it additional weight given his history and stature.

[MightyDR]

Al D’Arco said that Amuso and Casso touched base with him before heading to a Commission meeting. So that’s another post-85 meeting. Massino just wasn’t in the loop.

More from Massino’s testimony:
Q At a later point in your life as the Bonanno Crime Family leader, did you personally attend commission meetings?
A Numerous commission meetings, yes.

It should be noted that Massino attended Commission meetings in the early 80s about Bonanno family issues, so he could have misinterpreted the question as being “a Bonanno Crime Family leader” not “the Bonanno Crime Family leader.”

Massino says that the Commission is the bosses of the five families, but unfortunately doesn't provide any more detail.

[B.]

DR -- do you have any thoughts on what his incentive would be to claim there was no longer a functioning Commission after 1985 if it did in fact exist later?

I say this not from an argumentative point of view as I'm genuinely at a loss. Sonny floated the idea that he outright lied or had cognitive issues but his memory seems sharp from what's available.

"There ain't no commission," Massino said. "The last commission we had I was at in 1985 in November. When Paul Castellano got killed in December of 1985, there was never another commission meeting there."

JM: There ain’t no commission.
VB: Well, that’s what he told me.
JM: No.
VB: That’s what…
JM: No.
VB: … that’s what he told me.
JM: There, no, you know that, there’s no commission.
VB: Yeah, I know, but that’s what he told me.
JM: There’s no commission.
VB: This is what Vic Juliano told me.
JM: There hasn’t been a commission…
VB: I know that, but how…
JM: … since…
VB: … but listen …
JM: … since Paul got killed.

^ In the Basciano convo we can dismiss the idea that it was an offhand remark as he adamantly emphasizes six separate times that there's no Commission, to the point Basciano can't even finish a sentence. It's important to Massino that Basciano understands the point he's making. It also complements his testimony that Castellano's murder marked the end of the Commission, so at least he's consistent on the date.

He readily admits the NYC leaders worked together, had meetings, and discussed policy. He refers to the Commission in more general terms elsewhere in the same testimony. Yet Massino apparently saw Paul Castellano's murder as the official end point.

[chin_gigante]

- The Basciano conversation is an important one because he says he was told by a Gambino member that the Commission approved of him as acting boss, with Massino responding that there is no Commission and that Basciano already knows that (was there a prior discussion between them about it?). Basciano agreed and responded that's simply the word the Gambino guy used. Maybe he was more agreeable to Massino's response because that's his boss, but Massino was also in a far better position to know those specifics.

Quick correction but it's an important distinction that I'm sure you'll appreciate.

The Juliano who told Basciano he had approval from Massino and the Commission wasn't a Gambino member. It was Vic Juliano, a retired NYPD detective and private investigator who was used, like lawyer Tommy Lee, to pass messages back and forth to Massino at MDC Brooklyn.

On that note, I think we know everyone who Massino was using to get messages during his time in prison. He had Tommy Lee and Vic Juliano. When Joseph Cammarano Sr got arrested he could use him because Dino and Joseph Cammarano Jr were allowed to visit him because they were his sons. When Basciano was arrested, he started using his son Vincent Jr to get messages even though he was not a member at that time. Massino's daughter once tried to get a message through to him but he told her to mind her business.

[B.]

Quick correction but it's an important distinction that I'm sure you'll appreciate.

The Juliano who told Basciano he had approval from Massino and the Commission wasn't a Gambino member. It was Vic Juliano, a retired NYPD detective and private investigator who was used, like lawyer Tommy Lee, to pass messages back and forth to Massino at MDC Brooklyn.

Haha, I do appreciate it. I confused him w/ Sonny Juliano. So an ex-cop and non-member used the term Commission to Basciano.

Question is, did Basciano already know there was no Commission like he says? Massino seemed to feel Basciano should already know and Basciano agrees twice he does already know, but we have no way of knowing if it came up before. Massino had meetings with Basciano on the street where they waxed mafia philosophy (the infamous "what's better, killers or earners?" discussion) so who knows.

Either way Basciano can't be included as a source who claimed the Commission existed, as he was reiterating a message from an ex-cop and agreed with Massino's take in this instance.

Another possibility is that some of the other Families recognized the Commission in some form post-1985 but Massino and the Bonannos did not.

[MightyDR]

DR -- do you have any thoughts on what his incentive would be to claim there was no longer a functioning Commission after 1985 if it did in fact exist later?

I say this not from an argumentative point of view as I'm genuinely at a loss. Sonny floated the idea that he outright lied or had cognitive issues but his memory seems sharp from what's available.

"There ain't no commission," Massino said. "The last commission we had I was at in 1985 in November. When Paul Castellano got killed in December of 1985, there was never another commission meeting there."

JM: There ain’t no commission.
VB: Well, that’s what he told me.
JM: No.
VB: That’s what…
JM: No.
VB: … that’s what he told me.
JM: There, no, you know that, there’s no commission.
VB: Yeah, I know, but that’s what he told me.
JM: There’s no commission.
VB: This is what Vic Juliano told me.
JM: There hasn’t been a commission…
VB: I know that, but how…
JM: … since…
VB: … but listen …
JM: … since Paul got killed.

^ In the Basciano convo we can dismiss the idea that it was an offhand remark as he adamantly emphasizes six separate times that there's no Commission, to the point Basciano can't even finish a sentence. It's important to Massino that Basciano understands the point he's making. It also complements his testimony that Castellano's murder marked the end of the Commission, so at least he's consistent on the date.

He readily admits the NYC leaders worked together, had meetings, and discussed policy. He refers to the Commission in more general terms elsewhere in the same testimony. Yet Massino apparently saw Paul Castellano's murder as the official end point.

I don't think Massino is lying about there being no Commission after 1985, he just either wasn't aware of it (the ones in the late 80s) or didn't consider them real Commission meetings. He acknowledges that the five families would confer on organized crime policy after 1985, giving the 2000 meet as an example, but obviously didn't consider them Commission meetings. Saying that the Commission made him boss in 1991 really throws a spanner in the works though.

Despite what the other sources considered them, I think it would be fair to call the 90s meetings "de facto Commission" meetings, given the weight of Massino's perspective (no pun intended ). However, I don't think we should say the Commission stopped after 1985 though. The meeting Gravano describes from 1988 isn't just bosses meeting to sort out issues. It is described as a "formal meeting of the Cosa Nostra commission" and the key item to be addressed were the two vacant seats - the Bonannos and the Colombos. They voted on Vic Orena becoming acting boss and he was supposed to be there the next time they met. Gotti wanted the Bonannos to have their seat back but Chin shot it down and it was to be discussed at the next meeting.

[B.]

I don't think Massino is lying about there being no Commission after 1985, he just either wasn't aware of it (the ones in the late 80s) or didn't consider them real Commission meetings. He acknowledges that the five families would confer on organized crime policy after 1985, giving the 2000 meet as an example, but obviously didn't consider them Commission meetings. Saying that Commission made him boss in 1991 really throws a spanner in the works though.

Despite what the other sources considered them, I think it would fair to call the 90s meetings "de facto Commission" meetings, given the weight of Massino's perspective (no pun intended ). However, I don't think we should say the Commission stopped after 1985 though. The meeting Gravano describes from 1988 isn't just bosses meeting to sort out issues. It is described as a "formal meeting of the Cosa Nostra commission" and the key item to be addressed were the two vacant seats - the Bonannos and the Colombos. They voted on Vic Orena becoming acting boss and he was supposed to be there the next time they met. Gotti wanted the Bonannos to have their seat back but Chin shot it down and it was to be discussed at the next meeting.

Really great points.

- Massino wasn't yet boss and was in prison in the late 1980s. He certainly has some blindspots during those years.

- The official Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese bosses were still on the street. However, they were not when Massino was out of prison as boss.

- Gigante had continuity as a member of the pre-1985 Commission. Wish we knew how he saw the situation after 1985.

One motivation for Massino to lie could have been that the Bonannos weren't on the Commission so he wanted to downplay its importance, but Massino was a key part of the 1999/2000 meeting so that motivation wouldn't apply by then.

With your points in mind, I think we should be more skeptical of Massino's understanding of 1986-1991 but give serious consideration to what he says 1991-2005, especially after he left prison.

[Pogo The Clown]

Wasn't there an article a few years back that said the Colombos made some guys and didn't pass a list around? I seem to recall that.


Pogo

Same thing with John Spirito Jr who apparently made some of his friends without passing a list. Eventually Joe Cammarano did retroactively pass a list of those he made to the other families.

Seems that article was true. From the Lovsglio testimony thread.

In 2012, Lovaglio told the NYPD that the Genovese Family was not circulating their list of proposed members and that the Bonanno Family was going to stop circulating its list

[SonnyBlackstein]

With your points in mind, I think we should be more skeptical of Massino's understanding of 1986-1991 but give serious consideration to what he says 1991-2005, especially after he left prison.

What you're trying to say is "Massino's testimony that there were no Commission meetings after 1985 is wrong."

Repeat after me B.
"Massino's testimony that there were no Commission meetings after 1985 is wrong."

[SonnyBlackstein]

The Juliano who told Basciano he had approval from Massino and the Commission wasn't a Gambino member. It was Vic Juliano, a retired NYPD detective and private investigator who was used, like lawyer Tommy Lee, to pass messages back and forth to Massino at MDC Brooklyn.


Haha, I do appreciate it. I confused him w/ Sonny Juliano. So an ex-cop and non-member used the term Commission to Basciano.

For the record, this is a moot point and does nothing to disprove whether a legitimate Commission approved Basciano or not. Hint, you're literally shooting the messenger.


Vic Juliano, as stated, was a messenger. He was, passing, a message.

The validity of the message has nothing to do with the messenger themselves but the source of the message.

Sorry to take the shine off your one small point.
So the record still stands at:
Defede x8
Gravano x1
Casso/Amuso x1
Colombo x1
Basciano x1
Violi x1
MASSINO x1

Vs

Massino x1.

[B.]

You'e got the mouth of a young Muhammed Ali and the brain of an old Muhammed Ali.

I kid you, man.

But no, I think it's a great point that Massino wasn't in a position to know everything that was happening in the late 1980s. Something that's easy to forget too is we're talking about a period of intense chaos for the entire mafia. The mid-1980s are when a lot of national connections were already on the ropes, some of the smaller Families were dying or dead, there was a giant tide change with NYC leaders going to prison or getting killed and new bosses taking over.

You also had NYC Families carrying out secret wars against each other, something the Commission would normally be mediating but it seems like there was a political free-for-all which does support Massino's point that something happened at the end of 1985. Contrast that with the late 1970s and early 1980s when the formal Commission was directly involved with the Colombo dispute, the Galante + three captains murders, etc. There's no question some of the core functions of the Commission were no longer happening during the period in question.

It's not surprising some people had a different understanding of what was taking place given the chaos taking place. It's comparable to earlier periods of unrest where, unsurprisingly, sources also have conflicting/confusing accounts.

Maybe we can agree that Massino genuinely believed the Commission stopped functioning after 1985 whether you believe that to be the absolute truth or not.

[Snakes]

I think you both are right, from your own respective points of view. It's just splitting hairs

[B.]

"You told me the mafia betrayed and murdered the Commission."

"The Commission was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. It ceased to be the formal Commission and became the defacto Commission. When that happened, the good men who formed the Commission were destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

"A certain point of view?"

[B.]

Meadow Soprano : Are you on the Commission?

Tony Soprano : Am I on the what?

Meadow Soprano : Whatever you want to call it. The ruling council.

Tony Soprano : That's total crap, who told you that?