Double Affiliation

[Wiseguy]

Every case involving the Ndrangheta in New York over the past decade has involved the American families to one degree or another.

[CabriniGreen]

okay.... half way through Pizza Connection.....



@Confederate...
It's going to be hard to finish. Interesting, but a little boring.

It's a lawyer- centric book. Written by a lawyer, about the Pizza Connection TRIAL, ( not the mafia, or its operations...) that focuses on the TRIAL STRATEGIES, and myriad of conflicts amongst the 22 defense attorneys. There is more in the book about the conflicts between the lawyers than the mafia clans.

It's not really informative on the greater scope of the mafia drug trade.

@Jeremy

Now OCTOPUS!!! How the fuck I hadn't heard of that book is beyond me....

FANTASTIC READ! I might even go as far as saying it's more relevant than Sixth Family, its WAAY more on the money, and gives proper context to a lot of the info in Sixth Family. This book, plus the others on the Montreal and Toronto clans is an excellent history lesson in the Italian narcotics trade.

@Wiseguy @Hairy

I feel presumptuous asking, but have you guys read this book? If you did, I think you would find my post much more coherent and consistent....

[CabriniGreen]

also @B. as well....

Have you read this Octopus book, and if so, what did you think?

[CabriniGreen]

And lastly, reading that book, and looking at what's going on today, can you really tell me you dont find the Gambino- Calabrian narcotics developments highly interesting, and a continuation of a decades long operation?

[baldo]

Cabrini, check out “last days of the Sicilians” for more information on the pizza connection. Much better in my opinion if I recall correctly.

[JeremyTheJew]

Im glad you liked that book. It is rarely talked about yet had so much good info and is the only book that wrote about cherry hill gambinos in the pizza connection.

Did u finish the whole book already!? Ur very fast. Or its that good lol.

Same author has another book about the Russian/Sicilian/Yakuza connecton w the Pax Mafioso or somethint like that they called it. That itself could be a thread

[CabriniGreen]

Yeah, I can be voracious if I'm into the subject matter....

I appreciate the recommendation... Now @baldo, I'm gonna check out last days of the sicilians too....

[B.]

And lastly, reading that book, and looking at what's going on today, can you really tell me you dont find the Gambino- Calabrian narcotics developments highly interesting, and a continuation of a decades long operation?

Haven't read Octopus but I've read both the Pizza Connection and Last Days of the Sicilians.

Without having read Octopus, not sure if the comment I quoted is based on that or another book, but if current operations are a continuation of a decades-long operation, that would only reinforce the fact that these are members of different organizations with different affiliations who happen to work together as part of the same network, which in this case is a drug operation.

[CabriniGreen]

B.
I really think that might be antiquated.....

Have you seen the recent gambling bust in Italy?

It's in the news from Italy section...
You got Italian prosecutors who are saying the mafias are at this point virtually industiguishable so extensive is their level of cooperation.

This has begun to extend to the Americas, IMO.
These people are starting to move back and forth between territories and organizations fluidly.

This is the NEW order I've been trying to crack the code as far as how the organization works for awhile...

[CabriniGreen]

B.

Also B. one quick easy question, in your opinion, who ran the heroin trade, the Sicilian clans, or the Families in NY?

[Wiseguy]

B.
I really think that might be antiquated.....

Have you seen the recent gambling bust in Italy?

It's in the news from Italy section...
You got Italian prosecutors who are saying the mafias are at this point virtually industiguishable so extensive is their level of cooperation.

This has begun to extend to the Americas, IMO.
These people are starting to move back and forth between territories and organizations fluidly.

This is the NEW order I've been trying to crack the code as far as how the organization works for awhile...

Mmm, I'd hold off before coming to that conclusion. What B said is correct and not antiquated.

Federico Cafiero de Raho's statement about "The 'Ndrangheta and the mafias of Sicily and Puglia no longer existing" because they are "fluid organizations that manage different businesses between them" is an obvious overstatement. The level of cooperation in certain ventures, which we have also seen with drug trafficking, may blur the lines but the distinctive organizations are still there.

And I'm not sure where this has begun to "extend to the Americas." I can only assume you're referring to the Canada/Buffalo bust which, as I've said before, some of you are waaaay over thinking.

We have read recent articles talking about how the American families are working together, especially in drug trafficking, but other articles have also pointed out that it's hierarchical structure is still what separates the LCN from many other more fluid criminal enterprises.

Also B. one quick easy question, in your opinion, who ran the heroin trade, the Sicilian clans, or the Families in NY?

Both.

[CabriniGreen]

@wiseguy


What do you mean both?

[CabriniGreen]

Understand, I've read about 5 or 6 books from credible authors, researchers, agents, they ALL say the Sicilian mafia ran the heroin trade.....

They brokered the morphine from Turkish families and heroin from Thai and Chinese sources.

They also were brokering Colombian coke since the mid to late 70s....

I'm struggling to understand how you equate this to NY families being in control.

They have no operatives, that I know of embedded in these countries like Brazil and Venezuela, those are all Gambino connects, and I mean Gambino SICILIAN connections.......

[Wiseguy]

Understand, I've read about 5 or 6 books from credible authors, researchers, agents, they ALL say the Sicilian mafia ran the heroin trade.....

They brokered the morphine from Turkish families and heroin from Thai and Chinese sources.

They also were brokering Colombian coke since the mid to late 70s....

I'm struggling to understand how you equate this to NY families being in control.

They have no operatives, that I know of embedded in these countries like Brazil and Venezuela, those are all Gambino connects, and I mean Gambino SICILIAN connections.......

I've probably read most of those same books.

Anyway, it depends on what you mean by "ran the heroin trade."

It sounds like you're referring to the supply and importation end. And, yes, that would be primarily the Sicilians. Though one could argue if an American LCN guy invested in a shipment, he had a hand in that too.

But the Americans were also involved, albeit mainly on the wholesale distribution end through their control of the territory where the vast majority of the heroin was being shipped to by the Sicilians. You look at these cases and the Sicilians and Americans were working hand-in-glove with each other.

That's why I say both.

[B.]

I agree with Wiseguy's comments above.

Again I will say that extensive cooperation and participation in the same network, operations, and businesses, no matter how intertwined and complex, does not mean that they are the same mafia organization or that one group is necessarily more dominant. None of this means that the formal organizations have joined together into some kind of super-mafia or that one group has usurped the others and turned them into sub-groups of their own organization.

Most of the points being made can just as well be made about the mafia decades ago.