Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[SonnyBlackstein]

How do you gauge accuracy on membership totals, especially with a group like Buffalo? The FBI's knowledge on different groups varies based on sources specific to those groups. Their knowledge, while impressive, isn't one size fits all and having comprehensive membership info on other groups doesn't always translate to another group, especially one like Buffalo that looks to have had a huge number of members unaccounted for by the FBI during a period when the FBI was accumulating an incredible amount of info on families across the US. You also won't see any argument from me about activity level -- when I say "member", I mean simply membership in the organization and nothing more.

I'm approaching this topic in good faith with an open mind based on historic and current information that has come to light -- please avoid the "you guys" talk, as it is condescending and my opinions aren't part of a hive mind on this topic or any other. That said, I've made my point about discrepancies between the membership total mentioned by Magaddino and the FBI's ability to identify or even estimate membership during that period and I don't see the point in continuing to hammer on the same points given the tone of the discussion.

There's a problem if you have to refer to figures from the 1960s to make a point. Big difference from 1989 and 2006.

Oh, so the time period has to correspond with what suits your narrative?

See B was very respectful, and clear, when he stated in the 60’s ‘the FBI was accumulating an incredible amount of info on families across the US’ and yet you still can’t argue the point. Because it doesn’t suit. The only problem ‘there is’, is your inability to stay on point when faced with a position you’re unable to combat.

You guys can keep coming up with ways to explain Violi's comments

Want to know the amusing irony. We’re not trying to ‘come up with ways to explain Violi’s comments’, you are.
We’re simply adjusting our perspective based on new information directly from an Underboss of a family. You’re the one jumping through hoops to explain it away to fit your narrative. Amusing.

but what I'm really interested in is how you guys will explain away these 30+ guys doing nothing when we see little to nothing in the years ahead. Will it be the same excuses made for years for Detroit or will we see something original? I can't wait.

Easy, I’ll gladly admit I was wrong.
I’m not trying to pursue a narrative or Im not a fanboy (contrary to what you may like to think), I simply want to know the truth, and imo the weight of this new evidence suggests an active Buffalo family.
If I’m wrong, so be it, I’ll be the first one to admit.
Unlike you, I have an open mind and don’t purport to know more than perhaps I should. So in five years time I’ll happy give you your due. I doubt it will be the same if I’m proven right.

[Wiseguy]

Oh, so the time period has to correspond with what suits your narrative?

See B was very respectful, and clear, when he stated in the 60’s ‘the FBI was accumulating an incredible amount of info on families across the US’ and yet you still can’t argue the point. Because it doesn’t suit. The only problem ‘there is’, is your inability to stay on point when faced with a position you’re unable to combat.

There's no legitimate point to argue. It's a way to dodge the the mathematical unliklihood that Buffalo has 30+ members today.

Everyone knows that figures pre-1980s were questionable, and more so the further back you go. But from the 1980s and beyond, the feds intel has been much more solid and consistent.

B's argument presupposes bad intel, or lack of intel, perpetuated itself not only 20+ years to 1989, but even 50 years or so to 2006 and beyond. That no new information came in or nothing was ever corrected. Or that a significant amount of members continued, and still continue, to fly under the radar.

In good faith and respectful or not, it's a pretty desperate argument to make.

Want to know the amusing irony. We’re not trying to ‘come up with ways to explain Violi’s comments’, you are.
We’re simply adjusting our perspective based on new information directly from an Underboss of a family. You’re the one jumping through hoops to explain it away to fit your narrative. Amusing.

What's this "your narrative" nonsense? You mean the FBI's narrative?

Easy, I’ll gladly admit I was wrong.
I’m not trying to pursue a narrative or Im not a fanboy (contrary to what you may like to think), I simply want to know the truth, and imo the weight of this new evidence suggests an active Buffalo family.
If I’m wrong, so be it, I’ll be the first one to admit.
Unlike you, I have an open mind and don’t purport to know more than perhaps I should. So in five years time I’ll happy give you your due. I doubt it will be the same if I’m proven right.

This isn't about arguing a point so I can be proven right. It's about how many times people on these forums think they can second guess the feds - be proven wrong - and still insist on making that same mistake again and again. Some of you guys just never learn.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Keep throwing the ‘you guys’ phrase around.

It buys you credibility.

[Wiseguy]

Keep throwing the ‘you guys’ phrase around.

It buys you credibility.

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[SonnyBlackstein]

Keep throwing the ‘you guys’ phrase around.

It buys you credibility.

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Did make me laugh bud. Appreciated.

We all have to take ourselves less seriously over these things.

Have a good night bud. -38C fucking degrees here in Toronto, a nip of something to warm the cockles is due methinks.

[Lupara]

Keep throwing the ‘you guys’ phrase around.

It buys you credibility.

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[emoji38]

Did make me laugh bud. Appreciated.

We all have to take ourselves less seriously over these things.

Have a good night bud. -38C fucking degrees here in Toronto, a nip of something to warm the cockles is due methinks.

Living the hard life up there. I'm already freezing my but off at -10C. [emoji4]

-38 degrees celcius would be difficult to operate for the large and very active viable Buffalo family's Canadian crew. I wonder whether Todaro, Jr. has given them, with the blessing of the Commission, some time off from taking over Montreal and bringing in massive quantities of cocaine from Colombia so they can spend some quality time with their families.

[CabriniGreen]

Us serious posters DO tend to be a little intense.....
I guess we should try to lighten up a bit....

[Frank]

Given what we know the feds had the family membership at back in 2006, as well as those that have died since then, it's highly unlikely they have that many members. I realize some here seem to think it's totally within reason that Buffalo could make 15+ guys over the last 13 years or so but they're living in fantasy land.

I am not confident the FBI had or has identified the entire membership of the Buffalo crime family. One example: Joe Pezzino was definitely a made man and I don't remember seeing him on any lists let me know if I'm wrong-cause i didn't take time to comb records/posts to verify.

The feds certainly had a good idea of the membership in 1989 when it was 45 members, as well as 2006 when it was 23 members. That shows a definite decline. And since 2006, several more members have died. But we're supposed to believe they have somehow drastically reversed course and found enough guys to build it back up to over 30? I don't think so. Even if there was a guy here or there flying under the radar, it wouldn't be enough to explain the discrepancy. As Pogo said in the beginning of this thread, it doesn't pass the smell test.

How many confirmed members do you currently have them at?

[FriendofHenry]

Is it just me that's surprised that there's over 10k. views for a more or less dead family?

[Wiseguy]

How many confirmed members do you currently have them at?

Pogo was able to list at least 10. The 2013 figure of 20 was an article max estimate. If we take the 23 confirmed members in 2006 and subtract the 9 or 10 members who have died since then, and then add Violi, you're looking at maybe 15 members. If that 2013 estimate of 20 was fairly accurate, and then subtract Falzone and add Violi, it's still somewhere between 15 and 20.

[Frank]

Yes, even if they made new members and are at the 30 or plus number, how many are currently retired or semi active. How many are going to be alive in 10 years. My take is that it's still a active family, but old age, death and a few indictments it could be all over. They not only need to have added members already, but need to keep adding to offset the old guys dying, just to stay where they are at now. I guess it's possible, but we will see how much more activity there is in the next 5 to 10 years. I would think that we can all agree thatsome more big indictments of the Canadian wing of the family, and it could definitely be all over for Buffalo.

[Frank]

How many confirmed members do you currently have them at?

Pogo was able to list at least 10. The 2013 figure of 20 was an article max estimate. If we take the 23 confirmed members in 2006 and subtract the 9 or 10 members who have died since then, and then add Violi, you're looking at maybe 15 members. If that 2013 estimate of 20 was fairly accurate, and then subtract Falzone and add Violi, it's still somewhere between 15 and 20.

With the addition of maybe a few previously unidentified members from that old list and the possibility that more member were recently made around the same time as Violi, that is possible to reach the 30 number that Violi stated. I'm just concentrating on his statement that he got promoted from a pool of 30. I didn't mean they had 40 to 50 members. That was just a response to the posters that saidhe said he was chosen from 30 and that didn't mean there was only 30 members, but more. I took his statement as he was respecting the total number of members made in the family. That he meant that the family had 30 members left, maybe 31 or 32 counting himself and Todaro Jr.

[Frank]

Also the more unidentified older members, the less new blood out of that 30, which isn't good for their survival.

[scagghiuni]

With the addition of maybe a few previously unidentified members from that old list and the possibility that more member were recently made around the same time as Violi, that is possible to reach the 30 number that Violi stated.

i think the family has 30 made members just like violi stated, of course being a small family i don't know how really the recruitment pool is large and it could be wiped out just with a couple of indictments, but these are just speculations
anyway violi who is a member stated it and it is true for me lol no matter if fbi thinks the family is dead, wiretaps contradict it

[johnny_scootch]

its interesting that the run the Rochester family had almost parallelled the run of the city of rochester itself. for a while, basically the 50s until the mid 80s, the place was a boom town with a lot of money to be made up there. everyone working, everyone spending money, everyone gambling, everyone going out. the rochester family was there for all of that. their time ended due to internal fighting and indictments, but it timed up perfectly with the decline of the region. things are turning around up there now (buffalo too) for the better, but back in the day the trajectory of LCN activity there closely followed the rise and fall of the region's economy as a whole.

still a lot of italians up there till this day and on top of that there has strangly been an influx of calabrian immigrants to the area the last 15-20 years (not conflating this to relate to any sort of mob resurgance or anything of the sort)

Rochester recently brought back their old Little Italy Feast, they hadn't held it in many years. I know several people involved in the craft brewing industry who've left NYC for Rochester. Most have seemed to get along very well, the city itself is doing a lot better than it had been for decades.