Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Hellboy]

If violi was telling the witness he beat outv30 other guys, it seems like the witness would kind of know if he was full of shit. Therefore I don't really see the point of him lying. What is the gain of him lying about it, in the first place?

[Wiseguy]

If violi was telling the witness he beat outv30 other guys, it seems like the witness would kind of know if he was full of shit. Therefore I don't really see the point of him lying. What is the gain of him lying about it, in the first place?

I have no desire to speculate what was going on in Violi's head. Again, given the reasons I listed above, there is ample reason not to take what he said as conclusive proof the family has that many members.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Or one could reason that a recently appointed underboss of a family stated clearly he was chosen above 30 (odd) members and maybe take his word for it.

If anyone’s actually in a position to know, it’s probably him.

[JCB1977]

It is an interesting topic, as all the other families deemed to be defunct have no life in them at all.....no wiretaps no talk of a boss, ub, capos or membership....so it's quite normal for people to be interested

On one hand, other than the 9 families the feds still unquestionably consider viable, Detroit and Buffalo lasted longer into the 1990s than any other family (Pittsburgh would probably follow after the). So to an extent, it does make sense that Detroit and Buffalo would cause more debate than, say, New Orleans or St. Louis.

On the other hand, as I've said, it's 2019, folks.

Pittsburgh was still humming into the early 2000’s. The 1997 Rincon Casino Takeover bust and the 1999 indictment of Youngstown wing Captain Lenine Strollo. Decimated the Youngstown faction. In 2000, there was the major Donny Ciancutti gambling bust as well as the 2003 major bust of the Adolpho Williams and Sal Williams Numbers/sports betting operation. It was eerily quiet following that case.

[JCB1977]

The last big case out of Cleveland was the John “Peanuts” Tronolone bust in Hallandale Beach, FL back around 1993-1994

[Wiseguy]

Or one could reason that a recently appointed underboss of a family stated clearly he was chosen above 30 (odd) members and maybe take his word for it.

If anyone’s actually in a position to know, it’s probably him.

If you're prepared to believe Buffalo has made something like 18 new members since 2006. In which case, I have a timeshare in Florida I want to sell you.

[Frank]

Violi only stated he beat out 30 guys for the U.B. position. that doesn't mean there are only 30 guys in the family.

It would mean there was 32

[Frank]

Violi only stated he beat out 30 guys for the U.B. position. that doesn't mean there are only 30 guys in the family.

It would mean there was 32

Counting Todaro Jr and Violi

[Frank]

Or one could reason that a recently appointed underboss of a family stated clearly he was chosen above 30 (odd) members and maybe take his word for it.

If anyone’s actually in a position to know, it’s probably him.

If you're prepared to believe Buffalo has made something like 18 new members since 2006. In which case, I have a timeshare in Florida I want to sell you.

Are the Luppinos included in your total members of 2006?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Or one could reason that a recently appointed underboss of a family stated clearly he was chosen above 30 (odd) members and maybe take his word for it.

If anyone’s actually in a position to know, it’s probably him.

If you're prepared to believe Buffalo has made something like 18 new members since 2006. In which case, I have a timeshare in Florida I want to sell you.

A timeshare in Florida? Tell me more...

It must be quite satisfying to be in such a condescendingly superior position.
Yet you have still failed to answer, in entirety, my previous post which answers this question quite reasonably.
Ill re-post for your convenience;

@ Lupara:
Let’s also look at context.

14 members inducted appears a large number, until its put into context, that this would be from 2006. That’s 13 years. Meaning an inductee per year, odd. Or one induction every 4 years with 4/5 inductees.

The math on these equations doesn’t appear incredibly unrealistic.

We also need to take into account that it is unlikely the FBI would be aware of all members. It’s not at all unlikely they were unaware of 4-5 members.

And taking into account Canada, which could easily constitute a reasonable portion, 5-10 possible members.

A mix of all three possibilities, in any weight, and you quite easily arrive at a ballpark 30 number.

I don’t see why Violi’s statement considering the above appears extraordinarily unbelievable.

Even for a minute.

Even granting you the most favorable, minimum numbers from the above, your position still appears fragile:
One induction every 4 years inducting a mere THREE members: NINE members (yup, one induction, every 4 years, three inductee's, unbelievable eh)
in addition to:
FBI unaware of perhaps a mere FOUR members:
in addition to:
Canada having a MERE FIVE members.

That's 18 members, at a minimum, with considerable potential that these numbers may be greater, and we STILL get 18 members plus the 12 cited in a 2012 report....

Wal-ah, 30 members.

The obvious conclusion is that a reasonable mix of the above three components and you can find 30 members in any one of a multiple of reasonable situations.

Now I'm not saying this is the scenario, but I've presented you with a perfectly reasonable one and one in your favor, and your only response is to avoid the question and brand my proposition as pie in the sky.

Avoiding or demeaning the argument isn't winning it.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Violi only stated he beat out 30 guys for the U.B. position. that doesn't mean there are only 30 guys in the family.

It would mean there was 32

No, it would mean there were only 30 guys (assumed made) considered for the UB position.
That is the only inference we can take.
It is possible there were more made members not considered, but it is not possible there were 'less' than 30 men considered (the numbers Im sure are ballpark but the point is the same. We cant draw a maximum inference but we can draw somewhat a minimum)

[B.]

And I always like to point out the part where it says a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to be made...they were actively out there recruiting and making members. They could go from 15 members to 30 in the blink of an eye.

I've been doing some deeper research into the Buffalo family and found that they stopped doing the "traditional" making ceremony while Stefano Magaddino was still active as the boss and it hadn't been in practice for many years at that point according to the source, with the family instead doing a verbal oath only. I don't know if the family resumed doing the traditional ceremony later, but based on this info, the Buffalo-Toronto/Hamilton members inducted in the 1950s and 1960s, possibly earlier, had a more informal "verbal" ceremony not unlike the Morena ceremony (and many other Bonanno ceremonies spanning decades, DeCavalcante ceremonies, etc.). With this in mind, the idea of making members in the "blink of an eye" could be literally closer to the truth.

Also, another interesting note... there is a transcript where Stefano Magaddino tells his capodecina Joe Falcone that the Buffalo family had 22 members when he took over and that he built them up to 125 members at their peak. Most of these names have never been identified or confirmed and the FBI's Buffalo lists from the 1960s show only about half this number, if that, including NY, PA, and Canada (all places they had confirmed members), which shows that the FBI was missing a great deal of membership info.

The FBI's lists of living members post-1960s likely aren't comprehensive either and I don't think we can use the FBI's list of living members from any era as an absolute number of made members for any given time, then or now. That said, 30 current members vs. 125 at their peak is hardly a resurgence and if anything the 125 peak number should give credence to the idea that they could still have at least 30 members today, which was heavily implied by Violi's recorded statements.

[Frank]

Violi only stated he beat out 30 guys for the U.B. position. that doesn't mean there are only 30 guys in the family.

It would mean there was 32

No, it would mean there were only 30 guys (assumed made) considered for the UB position.
That is the only inference we can take.
It is possible there were more made members not considered, but it is not possible there were 'less' than 30 men considered (the numbers Im sure are ballpark but the point is the same. We cant draw a maximum inference but we can draw somewhat a minimum)

First the thirty number that Violi said could of been a rough estimate. The way I took his statement was there was about 30 other members, but I don't believe thirty members were considered for the position. If 30 members were considered, how many were not considered? That really makes the Buffalo Family at the 40 or 50 member level. The only new member to be identified in recent years is Violi himself.

[Confederate]

And I always like to point out the part where it says a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to be made...they were actively out there recruiting and making members. They could go from 15 members to 30 in the blink of an eye.

I've been doing some deeper research into the Buffalo family and found that they stopped doing the "traditional" making ceremony while Stefano Magaddino was still active as the boss and it hadn't been in practice for many years at that point according to the source, with the family instead doing a verbal oath only. I don't know if the family resumed doing the traditional ceremony later, but based on this info, the Buffalo-Toronto/Hamilton members inducted in the 1950s and 1960s, possibly earlier, had a more informal "verbal" ceremony not unlike the Morena ceremony (and many other Bonanno ceremonies spanning decades, DeCavalcante ceremonies, etc.). With this in mind, the idea of making members in the "blink of an eye" could be literally closer to the truth.

Also, another interesting note... there is a transcript where Stefano Magaddino tells his capodecina Joe Falcone that the Buffalo family had 22 members when he took over and that he built them up to 125 members at their peak. Most of these names have never been identified or confirmed and the FBI's Buffalo lists from the 1960s show only about half this number, if that, including NY, PA, and Canada (all places they had confirmed members), which shows that the FBI was missing a great deal of membership info.

The FBI's lists of living members post-1960s likely aren't comprehensive either and I don't think we can use the FBI's list of living members from any era as an absolute number of made members for any given time, then or now. That said, 30 current members vs. 125 at their peak is hardly a resurgence and if anything the 125 peak number should give credence to the idea that they could still have at least 30 members today, which was heavily implied by Violi's recorded statements.

@B
So the Outfit wasn't the only group that didn't do the "Formal Ceremony" years ago. Wow, that's news to me. Do you have any transcripts you can post stating what you learned. Who was the source for this info? Thanks.

[B.]

Not sure who the Buffalo source was, only that he was a CI with the FBI with extensive knowledge of the Buffalo family. We've had many discussions on this concerning the Bonanno and DeCavalcante family already, but just to quickly sum it up, many Bonanno sources spanning decades reported that they had a verbal-only "ceremony". The DeCavalcantes had verbal-only ceremonies in the 1970s and 80s -- since we don't have info on their pre-1960s ceremonies we can't be sure how far back it went. A member source with the Lucchese family also claimed that he was made in a similarly "unorthodox" ceremony in the late 1950s. What's interesting to me is that all of these families had strong Sicilian roots.