SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:10 pm
@ Lupara:
Let’s also look at context.
14 members indicted appears a large number, until its put into context, that this would be from 2006. That’s 13 years. Meaning an inductee per year, odd. Or one induction every 4 years with 4/5 inductees.
The math on these equations doesn’t appear incredibly unrealistic.
We also need to take into account that it is unlikely the FBI would be aware of all members. It’s not at all unlikely they were unaware of 4-5 members.
And taking into account Canada, which could easily constitute a reasonable portion, 5-10 possible members.
A mix of all three possibilities, in any weight, and you quite easily arrive at a ballpark 30 number.
I don’t see why Violi’s statement considering the above appears extraordinarily unbelievable.
Even for a minute.
This is the effect of not having a grasp on the overall state of the LCN today.
That many guys getting made into the Buffalo family, on either side of the border, over the past 13 (or a dozen made over the past 5 years as Pogo said) years is incredibly unrealistic.
The idea that Buffalo has 30+ members in 2019 is as absurd as the idea that Detroit has that many members.
Wiseguy, it was on wiretap, do you think the underboss would lie about something like that to a Bonnano made guy? The Genovese have what, 200 or so made guys and hundreds more associates. You don't see them getting busted every month. Sure there are almost yearly busts, but they have like 7 times the amount of made guys that Buffalo is proposed to have. So one case once in a while makes sense. The exception here would be Philly, which lets face it, are the less professional family that's still active. Many of their guys are stunads.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
The idea that Buffalo has 30+ members in 2019 is as absurd as the idea that Detroit has that many members.
no, it's very possible, considering the total membership both in canada and the states
honestly i highly doubt canadian police investigated seriously organized crime in ontario, i bet they have no idea how many made members there are over there and i doubt fbi knows about canadian stuff
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:10 pm
@ Lupara:
Let’s also look at context.
14 members indicted appears a large number, until its put into context, that this would be from 2006. That’s 13 years. Meaning an inductee per year, odd. Or one induction every 4 years with 4/5 inductees.
The math on these equations doesn’t appear incredibly unrealistic.
We also need to take into account that it is unlikely the FBI would be aware of all members. It’s not at all unlikely they were unaware of 4-5 members.
And taking into account Canada, which could easily constitute a reasonable portion, 5-10 possible members.
A mix of all three possibilities, in any weight, and you quite easily arrive at a ballpark 30 number.
I don’t see why Violi’s statement considering the above appears extraordinarily unbelievable.
Even for a minute.
This is the effect of not having a grasp on the overall state of the LCN today.
That many guys getting made into the Buffalo family, on either side of the border, over the past 13 (or a dozen made over the past 5 years as Pogo said) years is incredibly unrealistic.
The idea that Buffalo has 30+ members in 2019 is as absurd as the idea that Detroit has that many members.
Im glad Wiseguy you have a much greater grasp of ‘LCN today’ than say, Paolo Violi.
It’s absurd (as you say) that I should be taking his word over say, yours.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:34 pm
...
Also how likely is that this massive recruitment drive would somehow escape LE attention despite them having a member informant recording Violi?
Pogo
It seems to have escaped the Buffalo FBI's attention given the fact that in March 2017 they told the Buffalo News the family was dead and Joe T. Jr. was too busy and successful with his pizza place to be involved anymore. That was during the time the FBI (I'm assuming in NYC) had been running a separate but parallel investigation to the Otremens operation which we know had been going on for a couple of years by that point. And if the particulars of this Canadian investigation and its significance to Buffalo escaped their attention, then making 4-5 guys every few years could have definitely been missed as well given the focus of their attention appears to have been in other areas. That is my speculation, anyway.
Or the far more likely explanantion being that the info learned in 2015 and 2016 didn't change their view on the status of Buffalo in 2017. I mean so far it is only people on the internet claiming Buffalo is resurging and we know what their track record is on getting these things right (about 0-12).
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:33 pm
Wiseguy, it was on wiretap, do you think the underboss would lie about something like that to a Bonnano made guy? The Genovese have what, 200 or so made guys and hundreds more associates. You don't see them getting busted every month. Sure there are almost yearly busts, but they have like 7 times the amount of made guys that Buffalo is proposed to have. So one case once in a while makes sense. The exception here would be Philly, which lets face it, are the less professional family that's still active. Many of their guys are stunads.
I think what Violi said may very well have been a passing comment that shouldn't necessarily be taken literally or at face value, especially given the figures we've seen in 2006 and 2013. And especially given the unliklihood of so many guys being made into a family like Buffalo in a relatively short time.
Maybe if we had seen more activity, you guys could make a better argument. But one moderate drug bust? And the limits of Canadian law enforcement or not, what are you guys going to say when another 5 or 10 years passes with little or nothing happening with these 30+ members?
This really is Detroit all over again.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:52 pm
Im glad Wiseguy you have a much greater grasp of ‘LCN today’ than say, Paolo Violi.
It’s absurd (as you say) that I should be taking his word over say, yours.
It's not me vs Violi.
It's one comment by Violi vs A) the figures we've seen from the feds, B) the unliklihood of so many guys being made in that time frame, and C) relatively little activity from the family as a whole for years now.
More than enough reason to not take his comment as gospel or assume a big recruiting drive in Canada has brought the family back to life.
Last edited by Wiseguy on Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:10 pm
@ Lupara:
Let’s also look at context.
14 members indicted appears a large number, until its put into context, that this would be from 2006. That’s 13 years. Meaning an inductee per year, odd. Or one induction every 4 years with 4/5 inductees.
The math on these equations doesn’t appear incredibly unrealistic.
We also need to take into account that it is unlikely the FBI would be aware of all members. It’s not at all unlikely they were unaware of 4-5 members.
And taking into account Canada, which could easily constitute a reasonable portion, 5-10 possible members.
A mix of all three possibilities, in any weight, and you quite easily arrive at a ballpark 30 number.
I don’t see why Violi’s statement considering the above appears extraordinarily unbelievable.
Even for a minute.
This is the effect of not having a grasp on the overall state of the LCN today.
That many guys getting made into the Buffalo family, on either side of the border, over the past 13 (or a dozen made over the past 5 years as Pogo said) years is incredibly unrealistic.
The idea that Buffalo has 30+ members in 2019 is as absurd as the idea that Detroit has that many members.
Im glad Wiseguy you have a much greater grasp of ‘LCN today’ than say, Paolo Violi.
It’s absurd (as you say) that I should be taking his word over say, yours.
Best (and funniest) response I have heard in a LONG time. Sometimes comdeic relief is needed in situations such as this!
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:28 pm I mean so far it is only people on the internet claiming Buffalo is resurging
“The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated”
Right.
So by ‘only people on the board’ you mean the RCMP and oh, Paolo Violi.
And that is the interpretation of a writer with a history of greatly exaggerating and sensationalizing his subject matter. Can you point to the press release of this bust or any articles from the time of this bust that directly quote LE saying the Buffalo family is resurging?
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
The difference is yourself and Pogo know. You know there’s no Buffalo family.
Your arguments are good and are even likely correct. But there’s also not an insignificant chance you’re wrong.
The difference being is Lupara and myself give both scenarios consideration and weight, coming to a slightly different conclusion but giving due weight to your position. Whereas yourself and Pogo know you’re right, discard new evidence and write definitively and condescendingly that your position is without doubt and any other, as you say, is ‘simply absurd’.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:28 pm I mean so far it is only people on the internet claiming Buffalo is resurging
“The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated”
Right.
So by ‘only people on the board’ you mean the RCMP and oh, Paolo Violi.
And that is the interpretation of a writer with a history of greatly exaggerating and sensationalizing his subject matter. Can you point to the press release of this bust or any articles from the time of this bust that directly quote LE saying the Buffalo family is resurging?
Pogo
I would suggest you re read the quote. It states ‘the police evidence claim a resurgence.’
This if read correctly indicates the police, not the writer, making the claim.
I agree with Sonny. And sure, your right wiseguy, Violi's comment could have been one made in passing. But, the fact if the matter is, they HAVE been making people. Even if they aren't at 30 members, perhaps 20 something, which is still a very viable family. The Rizzuto's never had more than 20 or so made guys at their height.
The difference is yourself and Pogo know. You know there’s no Buffalo family.
Your arguments are good and are even likely correct. But there’s also not an insignificant chance you’re wrong.
The difference being is Lupara and myself give both scenarios consideration and weight, coming to a slightly different conclusion but giving due weight to your position. Whereas yourself and Pogo know you’re right, discard new evidence and write definitively and condescendingly that your position is without doubt and any other, as you say, is ‘simply absurd’.
See the difference?
The thing is I don't know. In fact I have no idea. That is why I defer to what those in the best position to know have to say on the matter. It is those on the forums that think they know more and go with their own opinions and theories. And it doesn't seem to matter how many times they are proven wrong by doing so. They are just as confidant about their own opions and theories being right the next time a similar subject comes up. It gets tiresome after a while.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:28 pm
Or the far more likely explanantion being that the info learned in 2015 and 2016 didn't change their view on the status of Buffalo in 2017. I mean so far it is only people on the internet claiming Buffalo is resurging and we know what their track record is on getting these things right (about 0-12).
Pogo
Edwards made the passing comment that the Buffalo crime family was in the process of reviving itself in the Ontario region during the time of the Platinum SB party (Jan. 2013) as they were getting involved in loansharking outside the Casino Niagara. Throw in the article @Sonny mentioned stating that law enforcement indicates a revival in the 2014 time-time frame and all of a sudden we have corroboration from several sources who are not just people on the internet.
I realize this is information is all tenuous, given the FBI's position before they started making no comment, and what Buffalo New when they wrote the family is "mostly dead" after they "dug into" the recent information. But there is decent corroborating evidence to indicate they have been in the process of reviving for a while and raise speculation as to what is really going on.
Totally understand your position and it makes sense. I just disagree.
Also, does anyone know if Joseph Pezzino was ever on any of the FBI's official lists of Buffalo made men?
