Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[scagghiuni]

We've always known the Buffalo family had a presence in Canada. But people have been jumping to conclusions about how extensive that is, including assuming it must be robust enough to consider the family back from the dead. And all it took was a drug bust, a guy reportedly being made underboss, and a passing comment about 30 members that many have taken at face value.

Even though the FBI doesn't consider Buffalo a viable family anymore, they still compiled a chart of its 23 members - including boss, underboss, consigliere, 4 captains, and 16 soldiers - back in 2006. So people shouldn't necessarily get too excited because some new guy has reportedly got the #2 spot.

if violi was made underboss by todaro jr (the boss) it means the family is viable, no matter how many indictments against it, even because it is mostly active in canada than buffalo
also there are probably murders carried out by them in ontario (or even montreal) we don't know at all
honestly i think we know only 30% at most what's happening in canada

[aleksandrored]

I'm not a big expert on LCN, so sorry if I'm talking bullshit, but if you consider some of the above facts, we might consider Outfit dead as well, since many of the members are very old and inactive and there is no recent news of their activities .

[Wiseguy]

if violi was made underboss by todaro jr (the boss) it means the family is viable, no matter how many indictments against it, even because it is mostly active in canada than buffalo
also there are probably murders carried out by them in ontario (or even montreal) we don't know at all
honestly i think we know only 30% at most what's happening in canada

What evidence is there that the family is mostly active in Canada? That's just an assumption that some have jumped to in order to explain away the relative lack of activity in the U.S. but still consider the family viable.

I'm not a big expert on LCN, so sorry if I'm talking bullshit, but if you consider some of the above facts, we might consider Outfit dead as well, since many of the members are very old and inactive and there is no recent news of their activities .

The FBI still considers the Outfit a viable family, though it is one of the few small remaining families outside New York. And I don't know what you mean by no recent news of their activities but Chicago has had a fairly consistent string of cases over the past 20 years. Can't really say the same about Buffalo. As I said before, compared to Buffalo, families in Chicago or Philadelphia look like juggernauts.

[SonnyBlackstein]

If the family was inactive, what possible purpose could they have for making an UB?

What possible purpose would there be to making an UB to manage no activity, give no orders, liase between no boss and no soldiers or management?

In making an underboss, that in itself is PROOF the family is active.

This is not an Underboss from decades ago who now has no role. He was made UB in the last two years.

What possible purpose could there be in making an UB to manage nothing?

[Pogo The Clown]

You guys are making the classic mistake of tying to use ranks or structure to show there is an active and viable family when it is the other way around. You should be using activity to show there is an active and structured family.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

You guys are making the classic mistake of tying to use ranks or structure to show there is an active and viable family when it is the other way around. You should be using activity to show there is an active and structured family.

There is a key issue with this point though.
This wasn’t a remanent title held from a time of activity to one of inactivity, this was someone who was made in 2015 and in the following two years made UB.

And again I have to ask, why? What inactive family initiates a member then promotes him to UB?

What is the point of promoting an UB if there is nothing to manage?
It’s illogical.

[Hellboy]

Was violi not engaged in activity? Hard to believe there wouldn't be others who have something going on.

[Pogo The Clown]

There is a key issue with this point though.
This wasn’t a remanent title held from a time of activity to one of inactivity, this was someone who was made in 2015 and in the following two years made UB.

And again I have to ask, why? What inactive family initiates a member then promotes him to UB?

What is the point of promoting an UB if there is nothing to manage?
It’s illogical.

That is my point. You guy's are trying to use an induction or a guy being named to a rank (see Rochester, Cleveland, Scranton, LA, Denver, etc) to show activity and viablity. It is the other way around.


Lets take it out of Buffalo for a second. How do we know there are active and viable families in say NY, Philly and NE? Becasue we have seen scores of its members and associates busted for various crimes over the last several decades. Not only busted for said crimes but actively colluding together and acting with cohesion to commit those crimes on behalf of an organization. There is no need to speculate or guess as to whether these groups are active, structured or viable or what activities they are involved with because it is right there for everyone to see.


In Buffalo all you have is one member being busted in 17 years. That is it. Really no different than 2 KC members being busted in 2010 or 1 Pittsburgh member being busted in 2000, 1 Scranton member busted in 2006, 1 Cleveland member busted in 2000 or the Rochester busts I mentioned. It is the last remnants of those organization still engaging in crime rather than viable organizations engaging in ongoing criminal activity.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

I understand your point about activity. And that was my camp prior to these recordings.

But I cannot escape the illogic that an inactive family would induct, and then promote to a managerial position. If there were nothing to manage. Again, he is not a remanent as seen in the examples you provide. A new inductee and a new promotion to a managerial position.

To say for no reason just is a nonsense to me.

But I do truly see your side of the coin. I just can’t escape the illogic of the above.

[Pogo The Clown]

I understand your point about activity. And that was my camp prior to these recordings.

But I cannot escape the illogic that an inactive family would induct, and then promote to a managerial position. If there were nothing to manage. Again, he is not a remanent as seen in the examples you provide. A new inductee and a new promotion to a managerial position.

To say for no reason just is a nonsense to me.

But I do truly see your side of the coin. I just can’t escape the illogic of the above.

Don't let yourself be seduced by a title. Look beyond the rank to see what it actually means.


John Tronolone was named Boss of Cleveland in the 80s despite their being only about a dozen members remaining with half of them in prison and only like 2 (including Tronolone) engaged in criminal activity. Tommy Marotta was named Boss of Rochester despite there being only about 20 members remaining with about half of them in prison and less than a handful of the remaining engaged in crime. Paul Villano was named Boss of Denver/Pueblo in the 90s when there were only about a handful of members left with no real criminal activity to speak of. Billy D'Elia was named Boss of Scranton in the early 90s despite there being about a dozen members remaining with almost all of them being old, inactive or in prison. Anthony Carolla and Frank Gagliano were namded Boss and UnderBoss of New Orleans in 1990ish despite there being only about a dozen-dozen and half members remaining with only like 5 of them (including Carolla and Gagliano) being active.


All of the above were promoted to meaingful positions on paper but what did it really mean when there was no real organization or real ongoing activity to speak of? Likewise in the present day what does it mean to be named "UnderBoss" of a family whose members are old and inactive with little criminal activity going on?


Pogo

[CabriniGreen]

Taking a different track....

Did you guys find it at all compelling that Joe Violi had ANY dilemma about what family to join?

Like Antimafia speculated that Dom Violi could a transferred from the Bonnanos. But I asked what would be the advantage of that?

Same question in the case of Joe Violi, if there isnt any real family left, why would he be so torn as to WHICH family to join?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Good question CG.

Pogo: good points, you make a strong case.


Violi sure has started a shitstorm on the forums with this. Fucker couldn’t have joined the Bannannas like daddy and let us sleep in peace

[CabriniGreen]

@Sonny

You ain't lying, dont you guys wish it had been an ndrine instead, lol......

This is why I really thought they were an ndrine..
A family based clan of drug traffickers....

And to your point @Pogo, I've been looking at the Violis in terms of business operations, more so than organizational affiliation.

It's why when the taping of the induction ceremony came out, I couldnt automatically assume they were Bonnanos.

Because I'm just looking at the operations.

Zummo sold a kilo for 38 grand. Okay, he sells coke by the kilo.

The Violis have been large scale narcotics traffickers for a couple decades. Dom Violi and his guy got busted importing direct from Colombia, okay to put this in perspective....

Nicchi and Mandala had to go TO NEW YORK, and go through Cali to get a better connection to the coke. They went to NY, to contact a guy, who contacted HIS guy in Miami, who contacted HIS people in Venezuela.
This got them kilos at 5000 a pop.

Now, we have seen over the years, coke from Mexico, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic was going for 10 grand a kilo.

Direct from Colombia, it could be between 2-5 for a kilo.

So the Violis could import coke, give it to Zummo or his people for say, 15- 20, and make potentially 10- 15 grand for every kilo. Then Zummo could take the kilo that cost him 15-20 grand and sell it for 35-40 grand. And make the same amount of profit.

So it makes business sense for them to have a relationship, even if they are in different organizations.
The drug business was the same in Sicily, family affiliation didnt really matter....

Or Joe Violi, in terms of affiliation, the question of, "Do I join the Bonnanos or Buffalo?"... How is that a question? In terms of operational capacity, military capability, economic VIABILITY, the Bonnanos HAVE to be superior....

But if you look at it from a BUSINESS standpoint it becomes, " What's the better command post for my large scale import/trafficking operation?".... I think THIS IS HIS REAL DILEMMA....

[CabriniGreen]

Does he operate from Hamilton, or Montreal?

[Lupara]

People can come up with their own definitions of what makes a viable family if they want but, as we've seen in the past, you'll get people claiming there are families in all sorts of places. Nobody is going to know better than the feds about the state of a family and, as I've pointed out many times, we haven't seen Buffalo on any list for 20+ years.

yes, but in this case there are evident proofs (wiretaps from mafiosi themselves) and the fact that buffalo family is also in canada
i've never heard any proof even close to it that kansas city or others family are still viable and active

We've always known the Buffalo family had a presence in Canada. But people have been jumping to conclusions

The only ones jumping to conclusions are you and Pogo. The rest of us are just speculating.