Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Lupara]

Personally I’m not advocating a vast, sprawling, unknown to LE, LCN family with multiple tentacles and operations.

But it’s clearly the probability that there is an active family, with a hierarchy and around 30 odd members. We have almost irrefutable proof, ie recorded statements of precisely this by the family’s underboss.

I don’t see why this is contentious.

And again I go back to what I said about all of this info being known to LE and yet they still considered the Buffalo family to be dead. Again it goes back to how one chooses to interpret the info. LE views it one way and people on the forums the other way.


Case in point the membership talk. What Humphries actually quoted was "30 candidates". People turned that into at least 30 members plus Violi and Todaro Jr. But what does it actually mean? Were there really 30 guy's in contention for the position? Or is it more likely just an off handed remark containing standard exaggeration rather than an accurate count of the remaining members?


We know that LE had the family at 45 members in 1989, 40 in 1996, 23 in 2006 and 20 in 2013. Factoring in deaths since then they would have had to have inducted over a dozen new members since 2013 to reach this 30 number that people are talking about. Now is that really believable considering that it doesn't look like they made many, if any, members from the late 80s-early 2010s? At a time when we are seeing places like Chicago, NE, NJ and evidently Philly starting to wind down as organizations is it really believable that Buffalo is actually growing and resurging as is being written?


Pogo

You're going round and round with keeping firmly focused on the American side of the family, which is where the feds are basing their info on. Which FBI list that we know of actually contained all the members of the Montreal Bonanno crew? At best they only listed a handful, meaning that they hardly keep track of members outside their jurisdiction.

If the feds had Buffalo at 20 members in 2013, it is quite possible they did not include all or any of the members on the Canadian side. So 30 members including Canada, with replacing a few who passed away, really doesn't seem far-fetched.

Fact is whatever is left of Buffalo is certainly active in Canada. And Violi is either lying or not, with lying being highly unlikely. It would also be interesting to know whether Morena contested the "30 candidates" statement if it was an exaggeration. Such an exaggeration could be considered a violation of Mafia protocol too.

[Pogo The Clown]

Yeah but your pretty much guessing that is the situation. We really don't know that is the case. Besides what you are arguing was not what was being written. People were talking about Buffalo still being around and resurging rather than the remnants of the Maggadino organization surviving in Hamilton.

would also be interesting to know whether Morena contested the "30 candidates" statement if it was an exaggeration. Such an exaggeration could be considered a violation of Mafia protocol too.

How so?


Pogo

[Lupara]

Yeah but your pretty much guessing that is the situation. We really don't know that is the case. Besides what you are arguing was not what was being written. People were talking about Buffalo still being around and resurging rather than the remnants of the Maggadino organization surviving in Hamilton.

would also be interesting to know whether Morena contested the "30 candidates" statement if it was an exaggeration. Such an exaggeration could be considered a violation of Mafia protocol too.

How so?


Pogo

Because he could basically be lying to another member about his family's membership totals when the other families need to be aware of it. For instance Massino was, if this was true at all, making new members of made up deceased ones, thereby making his family larger than what was allowed, which was also a violation of their agreements.

If Violi is implying there are 30 other candidates it means that there were at least 30 members. If this wasn't true and this info would end up with the people in Buffalo and New York, he would at the very least have to explain himself.

So you agree to the possibility of the Buffalo family remaining viable because of ongoing activities in Canada? Or do you base viability on activities solely on the American side?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Personally I’m not advocating a vast, sprawling, unknown to LE, LCN family with multiple tentacles and operations.

But it’s clearly the probability that there is an active family, with a hierarchy and around 30 odd members. We have almost irrefutable proof, ie recorded statements of precisely this by the family’s underboss.

I don’t see why this is contentious.

And again I go back to what I said about all of this info being known to LE and yet they still considered the Buffalo family to be dead. Again it goes back to how one chooses to interpret the info. LE views it one way and people on the forums the other way.


Case in point the membership talk. What Humphries actually quoted was "30 candidates". People turned that into at least 30 members plus Violi and Todaro Jr. But what does it actually mean? Were there really 30 guy's in contention for the position? Or is it more likely just an off handed remark containing standard exaggeration rather than an accurate count of the remaining members?


We know that LE had the family at 45 members in 1989, 40 in 1996, 23 in 2006 and 20 in 2013. Factoring in deaths since then they would have had to have inducted over a dozen new members since 2013 to reach this 30 number that people are talking about. Now is that really believable considering that it doesn't look like they made many, if any, members from the late 80s-early 2010s? At a time when we are seeing places like Chicago, NE, NJ and evidently Philly starting to wind down as organizations is it really believable that Buffalo is actually growing and resurging as is being written?


Pogo

You're going round and round with keeping firmly focused on the American side of the family, which is where the feds are basing their info on. Which FBI list that we know of actually contained all the members of the Montreal Bonanno crew? At best they only listed a handful, meaning that they hardly keep track of members outside their jurisdiction.

If the feds had Buffalo at 20 members in 2013, it is quite possible they did not include all or any of the members on the Canadian side. So 30 members including Canada, with replacing a few who passed away, really doesn't seem far-fetched.

Fact is whatever is left of Buffalo is certainly active in Canada. And Violi is either lying or not, with lying being highly unlikely. It would also be interesting to know whether Morena contested the "30 candidates" statement if it was an exaggeration. Such an exaggeration could be considered a violation of Mafia protocol too.

+1

Concur.

Good post.

[phatmatress777]

Well I guess if your going to say your a Ub might as use a defunct family lol
Doesn’t really say anything , what’s todaro spouse to say ?
Back in the day the reporter would go sat on the place and logged todaro’s hours , to see if really does work everyday
I wonder how many undercovers feds tried to get jobs at la nova over the years , over under is 3

LaPiana is supposedly the Detroit underboss but that doesn't necessarily mean there's much of the mob left there.

I haven’t commented in this thread due to my being ‘on holiday’ but here’s my two cents, worth what it is.

As this information is not circumstantial, third party, Government conclusion, etc etc but is stated by the party of concern you really only have two options on what to believe:

A) Violi is the UB of the Buffalo family, an active family (it is nonsensical to presume an inactive family would promote a member to the UB position), with at least 30 made guys.

Or

B) Violi is lying.

Either option may be the case. But those are your only two options, IMO.

Analogies to Detroit etc are really not relevant, as if LaPiana was recorded as was Violi, we would still only have the above to options.

It follows that the likely option is also option A. It would be highly dangerous, quite stupid and serve little long term benefit for Violi to have made his recorded statements up. If Buffalo was dead, there were not 30 active members and he was not promoted to UB then the Bonanno’s would almost doubtlessly find this out and Violi would be in grave danger. With his historical association with the Mafia, Violi would certainly know this.
So although a possibility that he may have been lying, it is the unlikely scenario.

Logically we can conclude that it is therefor likely that Buffalo is an active family with at least 30 members and Violi is/was its UB.

And these conclusions are from someone who was 1000% certain Buffalo was long dead.

Rationally, though, it is the only conclusion to come to if you accept the evidence.

I agree with how you put it. I always look at things this way. What if's and could be's don't exist with me. Things are either left or right. You're either pregnant or you're not. This is simply the case here. Buffalo is either active or they're not.

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[Pogo The Clown]

Because he could basically be lying to another member about his family's membership totals when the other families need to be aware of it. For instance Massino was, if this was true at all, making new members of made up deceased ones, thereby making his family larger than what was allowed, which was also a violation of their agreements.

If Violi is implying there are 30 other candidates it means that there were at least 30 members. If this wasn't true and this info would end up with the people in Buffalo and New York, he would at the very least have to explain himself.

So you agree to the possibility of the Buffalo family remaining viable because of ongoing activities in Canada? Or do you base viability on activities solely on the American side?

But they weren't talking membership totals, member lists, family censuses or anything of the kind. It was simply an off handed comment made in casual conversation. Do you really think there were 30 guys being considered for UnderBoss or was Violi just exaggerating the number of people considered in casual conversation? Or that Violi counted over in his head all the remaining Buffalo members in the split second he made that comment?


As for viability the FBI said as late as 2017 (when this info was available to them) that the family was not viable, had no leadership and very minimal criminal activity. Of course people on the forums love to disregard what they say and go with their own opinions. The new twist is that they were only talking about the Buffalo portion and not Hamilton (as if there were that many Buffalo family members and activity in Hamilton to begin with).


We've been over this a 100 times (an obvious exaggeration dropped in casual conversation, number not to be taken literally).


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

But they weren't talking membership totals, member lists, family censuses or anything of the kind. It was simply an off handed comment made in casual conversation. Do you really think there were 30 guys being considered for UnderBoss or was Violi just exaggerating the number of people considered in casual conversation? Or that Violi counted over in his head all the remaining Buffalo members in the split second he made that comment?

You're acting as though the number has no meaning.
We can clearly deduce that the number has some meaning. He clearly means that there are not 5 guys in the family. And he clearly means there aren't 100. Does he literally mean exactly 30 members? Maybe, though not likely. Does he likely mean 25-35 members. Probably.

To state it was just an offhand number with no meaning, I don't think is correct.

As for viability the FBI said as late as 2017 (when this info was available to them) that the family was not viable, had no leadership and very minimal criminal activity. Of course people on the forums love to disregard what they say and go with their own opinions. The new twist is that they were only talking about the Buffalo portion and not Hamilton (as if there were that many Buffalo family members and activity in Hamilton to begin with).

Thats the problem. The only one with 'an opinion' here, is you. All due respect.
The Underboss of a family with 30 buttons (odd) has stated this explicitly. These are the facts, to ignore them is to have an opinion. Which runs contrary to the evidence.

Now should evidence come to light showing the contrary, Ill be the first to admit error. But the current weight of evidence points to an existing, active family with a hierarchy and 30 (odd) members. That's the evidence and likely probability at this juncture.

[JCB1977]

Great thread

[Pogo The Clown]

Thats the problem. The only one with 'an opinion' here, is you. All due respect.
The Underboss of a family with 30 buttons (odd) has stated this explicitly. These are the facts, to ignore them is to have an opinion. Which runs contrary to the evidence.

Now should evidence come to light showing the contrary, Ill be the first to admit error. But the current weight of evidence points to an existing, active family with a hierarchy and 30 (odd) members. That's the evidence and likely probability at this juncture.

Again going back to what I said about how one chooses to interpret the info. The Feds, who have access to the very same evidence you cite and a hell of a lot more that you and I don't have, have reached a far different conclusion. So who do I go with? The Feds or people on the forums who are about 0-12 when it comes to this topic?


Pogo

[johnny_scootch]

Case in point the membership talk. What Humphries actually quoted was "30 candidates". People turned that into at least 30 members plus Violi and Todaro Jr. But what does it actually mean? Were there really 30 guy's in contention for the position? Or is it more likely just an off handed remark containing standard exaggeration rather than an accurate count of the remaining members?


Pogo

This is the actual paragraph from Humphreys article...he doesn't say 'candidates' or 'members' it says 30 'guys'


***Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

Violi said he beat out 30 other guys to become Underboss, the documents claim. All would have to be “made members” of the Buffalo Family to be considered for the post.

The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave.***


IMO it doesn't get any clearer than that. Direct from court documents quoting the Underboss of the family and recorded by a made guy not some jack-off off the street!

Violi was relating what Todaro had told him in Florida to Morena. You could infer that the number 30 came directly from Todaro who would 100% know exactly how many guys he had under him.

And I always like to point out the part where it says a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to be made...they were actively out there recruiting and making members. They could go from 15 members to 30 in the blink of an eye.

[Pogo The Clown]

Despite the word difference (my mistake) the point still stands.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

Again going back to what I said about how one chooses to interpret the info.

And here's where we differ as there, imo, is literally nothing to interpret.

Violi was crystal clear in stating what he stated. He was either telling the truth or lying.
But there is no room to interpret anything.

[Pogo The Clown]

Th two are not mutually exclusive. See my point earlier in this thread about Rochester and Cleveland.


Pogo

[Pogo The Clown]

In fact now that I think about the situation is very simliar to Rochester.


In 2000 you had the Boss of the Rochester family cought on tape inducting a new member (informant Anthony Delmonti). In total there were at least 20 Rochester members still alive at this time. Marotta also had ties to Bonanno members and Cleveland members. Marotta was busted for dealing drugs and other crmies. The last member to be indicted in Rochester before him was, I believe, in 1988. So 12 years previous.


In 2017 you had the UnderBoss of the Buffalo family, with ties to Bonanno members, cought on tape and busted for dealing drugs. In total there were about 20-20 something Buffalo members still alive at this time. The last member to be indicted before him was in 2002. So 15 years previous.


In both cases people on the internet tried to use the bust and tapes as evidence of the respective families still being alive and viable and or resurging despite LE claims to the contrary.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

In both cases people on the internet tried to use the bust and tapes as evidence of the respective families still being alive and viable

If a family has a hierarchy and is recruiting, is that not the definition of a family being alive and viable?

If not then what is the definition of a family which is alive and viable?