Arrests in NY, induction ceremony taped

[CabriniGreen]

Interesting, that Sergi interview.... some points and questions..

@wiseguy

As you can see, I do indeed know the difference between old and new bridge..... And it was coke to Europe, dope to the US.....

It seems that the NY families have finally worked out the logistics of doing transatlantic business, but I still dont have a clear understanding of the hierarchies.

An Ursino in NY, is still an Ursino? Was an agreement worked out, where an ndrangheta made man is recognized as an equal, and can do business in NY, say, as long as they put it on record with the admin?

( This is why I always thought some of those sicilians were made so as to solidify a formal BUSINESS TIE, more than an organizational one, I have the same theory with the Violis being at that ceremony... )

( Think the interaction described involving Semplice, " Italian crime family... him facilitating calabrians being INTRODUCED, like a formal amico nostra introduction... " they are known to be Gambino guys..." ....are they actually made into the Gambinos, or just recognized to be the EQUIVALENT of a made guy?...)

Otherwise, this is where the theory of Double Affiliation came from. From interaction BETWEEN the mafias across the Atlantic. Into anothers territory, That's the distinction. Is an Ursino in NY an Ursino, Gambino, or both? Who does he answer to?

Questions

1. I thought it possible that ndrangheta was looking to establish, if not a chamber of control, at least a couple locali in NY..... from what Sergi is saying, this would be in COMPETITION(?) with the Siderno group, or no?

2. In regards to the timing.... do you guys think it a coincidence, the order to reconstitute the Buffalo family, came a year or less after Vito died, and control of Canada becomes an open question?

I think the American LCN was positioning the Violis to replace the Rizzutos, by making Buffalo the new Canadian command post.

Do you guys think the Bonnanos, you think they were trying to make Violi on the sneak?
I think on a smaller scale, they were looking for a relationship , somewhat similar to the Gambino- Ursino thing. But a Bonnano- Violi thing, with the Violis arranging coke through thier Colombian connection. This so as the Bonnanos wouldn't be dependent on the Gambino connections. That's my personal opinion there...


Any thoughts, Especially Wiseguy, is love to get your take on all this, yo u seem to be engaged I the topic, this is good for the board....

[Angelo Santino]

Question 1: I doubt a locale would ever be transplated to NYC (or the USA) for that matter. US laws are too strict which is why Canada seems preferable. There's probably a 'ndranghesti network connected from NYC to LA to FL but I don't think they're at the point of being organized in the hierarchy sense.

BTW, I read your posts, it's not my area so I can't respond with anything of value, but I do find your differentiation of the hierarchy as opposed to how things function to be thought provoking. But I'd argue that some LCN families conducted themselves more so like your saying than the Valachi/Soprano hierarchy that we are accustomed to fitting these guys into.

NYC fit into the model we all know and there's 5 entities within a 20 mile radius with dabblings in NE, NJ and FL. But then there's the Families Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit who's memberships and influence were statewide phenomenons, they "controlled" multiple cities. And yet they all had fewer members than NYC, their crews were anemic if you can even consider a capo with two made guys under him a crew in most cases.

Lastly, drawing back to dual membership. From my own research, I think its possible in some circumstances for a ndrangheta leader to be joined into the mafia but still occupied his other post. There is historical precedent for that. But one thing I think our minds gravitate to is that there must be some fierce competition between the mafie, as if they are rivals. Yet aside from a few spats, they've never made any attempts at surplanting the other. So whatever is going on with the dual memberships, it's starting at a place where there appears to be mutual respect.

[CabriniGreen]

@Chris Christie

Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated my man. I also read and enjoy your post on the early years of the Mafia, you really nail that time period.

I think you are probably right on a locali in NY. Where would you fit 49 made Calabrians? lol

I've also said, these groups arnt in competition. If anything they ENHANCE each other, by providing what the other lacks. It's so goddamn ODD, cause it really is like a Sollozzo situation, in real life, in modern day times.

[Wiseguy]

An Ursino in NY, is still an Ursino? Was an agreement worked out, where an ndrangheta made man is recognized as an equal, and can do business in NY, say, as long as they put it on record with the admin?

( This is why I always thought some of those sicilians were made so as to solidify a formal BUSINESS TIE, more than an organizational one, I have the same theory with the Violis being at that ceremony... )

( Think the interaction described involving Semplice, " Italian crime family... him facilitating calabrians being INTRODUCED, like a formal amico nostra introduction... " they are known to be Gambino guys..." ....are they actually made into the Gambinos, or just recognized to be the EQUIVALENT of a made guy?...)

Otherwise, this is where the theory of Double Affiliation came from. From interaction BETWEEN the mafias across the Atlantic. Into anothers territory, That's the distinction. Is an Ursino in NY an Ursino, Gambino, or both? Who does he answer to?

Here's what Sergi said -

"The Italian ethnic character of LCN in New York has become increasingly hybrid, but ethnicity still plays a role in the families’ evolution and their choice of new partners. 'Ndrangheta involvement with LCN families occurs because of aligned business interests, the commonality of mafia methods, a common language, and shared ethnic origins."

She also said law enforcement has seen an increase of Calabrians in the leadership of the Gambino and Genovese families. Members who have always been there but have risen to leadership roles. Not sure who she is talking about specifically.

Anyway, I haven't seen anything about dual membership. Just guys from different Italian crime groups working together for mutual profit. For example, in the Ursino case, it was said the Gambinos provided their connections to the Mexican cartels and the Ndrangheta provided their ability to move drugs and control of the European market.

1. I thought it possible that ndrangheta was looking to establish, if not a chamber of control, at least a couple locali in NY..... from what Sergi is saying, this would be in COMPETITION(?) with the Siderno group, or no?

Sergi said the Ndrangheta has sought to establish New York as a hub for drug trafficking. And we have seen some drug cases involving them in New York over the past decade. Don't know if this equates to establishing locali there or not.

2. In regards to the timing.... do you guys think it a coincidence, the order to reconstitute the Buffalo family, came a year or less after Vito died, and control of Canada becomes an open question?

There being any "order to reconstitute the Buffalo family" in the first place is still an open ended question.

[Angelo Santino]

@Chris Christie

Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated my man. I also read and enjoy your post on the early years of the Mafia, you really nail that time period.

I think you are probably right on a locali in NY. Where would you fit 49 made Calabrians? lol

I've also said, these groups arnt in competition. If anything they ENHANCE each other, by providing what the other lacks. It's so goddamn ODD, cause it really is like a Sollozzo situation, in real life, in modern day times.

Thanks, but make no mistake I don't know everything, I don't think anyone ever truly can. I've moved away from the Sicilians into the mainland aspect that existed in that very same time period. It's messy, I keep it under wraps, I feel I have an understanding superior to others. Pretty much, very little has changed in how these groups function. The names, rackets and certain functions have changed, but the culture has largely remained consistent.

Enhancing each other is a very astute observation, I may have to borrow that quote. It's always been that way, always. Consider criminals serving in the Italian prison system: they were sent to prisons all over so essentially everyone who served made connections with people from other regions. This is not a new thing, it predates 1900.

B. and I discussed several times the Ital underworld's propensity for shittalking each other and how we take it too literally when it's actually similar to the HR department complaining about maintainence in the same company. There have been times of violence but when compared to times of shared cohesiveness they've gotten along 95% of the time in the past 150 years. (Ok, Phila. about 70% of the time but still.)

Another thing I'd comment on is this misconception that they are clannish to the point of being ignorantly destructive. Not the case, never was at the microlevel. I'm sure you have assholes but the majority of the time they were pragmatists, it is what set them apart from other underworld groups. 1900, 1910, 1920 the Mafia was dealing with non-Ital gangs, not as lords of the manor but as friendly neighbors to bounce business off. Joe Morello was arrested in 1898 with a few Irishmen, which is quite early. You don't generally see Italians working with other ethnicities until the 1910's when more spoke English. Morello was ahead of his time.

I've familiarized myself with elements of the Ndrangheta hierarchy and if we were to imagine its presence taking a larging form in NY, a 'ndrina would probably be the first formal organization, it would be linked to a locale either in Canada or Italy depending on where its members rooted from. Let's say there's a surge in Ital immigration and that 'ndrina hits the 49 mark it can become a locale with the sanctioning of the mother chapter. And then they'd all be indicted, convicted and sentenced to long sentences within 2-5 years. That's why Canada it the best fit. Canadian law is evolving but they are where American law enforcement was at in the 40's: they have info but lack the laws on the books to significantly disrupt it. I think its more feasible to take advantage of Canada and just have individuals in the NY area serving as conduits, salesmen, representatives without any local organization in the traditional sense outside any formal hierarchy you've discussed.

[Angelo Santino]

Wiseguy:

Here's what Sergi said -

"The Italian ethnic character of LCN in New York has become increasingly hybrid, but ethnicity still plays a role in the families’ evolution and their choice of new partners. 'Ndrangheta involvement with LCN families occurs because of aligned business interests, the commonality of mafia methods, a common language, and shared ethnic origins."

She also said law enforcement has seen an increase of Calabrians in the leadership of the Gambino and Genovese families. Members who have always been there but have risen to leadership roles. Not sure who she is talking about specifically.

Very accurate, it goes back to the 1910's. Demographically speaking, the Gambinos got the majority of Calabrians, the Genoveses got the Provincials (Salerno down to Cosenza) and Westchester, both groups split the Neapolitans (very few of what we call Napolitan' were from the city of Naples but the surrounding countryside, this includes probably 80-90% of them). Who went with who was based on criminal affiliations rather than regional origin.

Lets fast forward to the 80's when John Gotti became boss, the Sicilian Palermitan faction didn't disappear it remained in the background just as it did under Anastasia. The NY groups are organic and multifaceted entities, very different from Phila. which is 80% centered on one racket.

[Lupara]

Wiseguy:

Here's what Sergi said -

"The Italian ethnic character of LCN in New York has become increasingly hybrid, but ethnicity still plays a role in the families’ evolution and their choice of new partners. 'Ndrangheta involvement with LCN families occurs because of aligned business interests, the commonality of mafia methods, a common language, and shared ethnic origins."

She also said law enforcement has seen an increase of Calabrians in the leadership of the Gambino and Genovese families. Members who have always been there but have risen to leadership roles. Not sure who she is talking about specifically.

Very accurate, it goes back to the 1910's. Demographically speaking, the Gambinos got the majority of Calabrians, the Genoveses got the Provincials (Salerno down to Cosenza) and Westchester, both groups split the Neapolitans (very few of what we call Napolitan' were from the city of Naples but the surrounding countryside, this includes probably 80-90% of them). Who went with who was based on criminal affiliations rather than regional origin.

Lets fast forward to the 80's when John Gotti became boss, the Sicilian Palermitan faction didn't disappear it remained in the background just as it did under Anastasia. The NY groups are organic and multifaceted entities, very different from Phila. which is 80% centered on one racket.

How would you divide the Gambinos and Genoveses in percentages of Sicillians, Calabrians, Neapolitans and other mainlanders, both historically and in recent times?

My understanding has always been that the Gambinos were one of the most Sicillian of the Five Families, along with the Bonannos ofcourse.

[Moscone65]

A bit off topic, but it's interesting to see how New York families had mainly sicilians and Neapolitan members while Chicago had mainly sicilians and alot of Barese too.

[Angelo Santino]

Wiseguy:

Here's what Sergi said -

"The Italian ethnic character of LCN in New York has become increasingly hybrid, but ethnicity still plays a role in the families’ evolution and their choice of new partners. 'Ndrangheta involvement with LCN families occurs because of aligned business interests, the commonality of mafia methods, a common language, and shared ethnic origins."

She also said law enforcement has seen an increase of Calabrians in the leadership of the Gambino and Genovese families. Members who have always been there but have risen to leadership roles. Not sure who she is talking about specifically.

Very accurate, it goes back to the 1910's. Demographically speaking, the Gambinos got the majority of Calabrians, the Genoveses got the Provincials (Salerno down to Cosenza) and Westchester, both groups split the Neapolitans (very few of what we call Napolitan' were from the city of Naples but the surrounding countryside, this includes probably 80-90% of them). Who went with who was based on criminal affiliations rather than regional origin.

Lets fast forward to the 80's when John Gotti became boss, the Sicilian Palermitan faction didn't disappear it remained in the background just as it did under Anastasia. The NY groups are organic and multifaceted entities, very different from Phila. which is 80% centered on one racket.

How would you divide the Gambinos and Genoveses in percentages of Sicillians, Calabrians, Neapolitans and other mainlanders, both historically and in recent times?

My understanding has always been that the Gambinos were one of the most Sicillian of the Five Families, along with the Bonannos ofcourse.

I can't divide them by percentage, there's not enough information. The Gambinos remain the most Palermitan linked family but that's not what are exclusively. They have had other factions (Sciaccatani etc) since 1900.

[Lupara]

Wiseguy:

Here's what Sergi said -

"The Italian ethnic character of LCN in New York has become increasingly hybrid, but ethnicity still plays a role in the families’ evolution and their choice of new partners. 'Ndrangheta involvement with LCN families occurs because of aligned business interests, the commonality of mafia methods, a common language, and shared ethnic origins."

She also said law enforcement has seen an increase of Calabrians in the leadership of the Gambino and Genovese families. Members who have always been there but have risen to leadership roles. Not sure who she is talking about specifically.

Very accurate, it goes back to the 1910's. Demographically speaking, the Gambinos got the majority of Calabrians, the Genoveses got the Provincials (Salerno down to Cosenza) and Westchester, both groups split the Neapolitans (very few of what we call Napolitan' were from the city of Naples but the surrounding countryside, this includes probably 80-90% of them). Who went with who was based on criminal affiliations rather than regional origin.

Lets fast forward to the 80's when John Gotti became boss, the Sicilian Palermitan faction didn't disappear it remained in the background just as it did under Anastasia. The NY groups are organic and multifaceted entities, very different from Phila. which is 80% centered on one racket.

How would you divide the Gambinos and Genoveses in percentages of Sicillians, Calabrians, Neapolitans and other mainlanders, both historically and in recent times?

My understanding has always been that the Gambinos were one of the most Sicillian of the Five Families, along with the Bonannos ofcourse.

I can't divide them by percentage, there's not enough information. The Gambinos remain the most Palermitan linked family but that's not what are exclusively. They have had other factions (Sciaccatani etc) since 1900.

It could be possible if we look at all known members per family at a certain point in time (say the 1950s) and then look at their individual ancestry and then simply do the math. The information is there but it will be a lot of work...

Seems like all the original families were predominantly Sicillian, but then gradually absorbed other Italians in the 1910s and 20s, ofcourse basing this on your research. The old Morello group absorbed the Cammoristi (possibly including Genovese) who ultimately rose to high raking positions. Seems like the mainlanders were basically in charge of the Genovese family in the 50s and beyond..

[Angelo Santino]

Wiseguy:

Here's what Sergi said -

"The Italian ethnic character of LCN in New York has become increasingly hybrid, but ethnicity still plays a role in the families’ evolution and their choice of new partners. 'Ndrangheta involvement with LCN families occurs because of aligned business interests, the commonality of mafia methods, a common language, and shared ethnic origins."

She also said law enforcement has seen an increase of Calabrians in the leadership of the Gambino and Genovese families. Members who have always been there but have risen to leadership roles. Not sure who she is talking about specifically.

Very accurate, it goes back to the 1910's. Demographically speaking, the Gambinos got the majority of Calabrians, the Genoveses got the Provincials (Salerno down to Cosenza) and Westchester, both groups split the Neapolitans (very few of what we call Napolitan' were from the city of Naples but the surrounding countryside, this includes probably 80-90% of them). Who went with who was based on criminal affiliations rather than regional origin.

Lets fast forward to the 80's when John Gotti became boss, the Sicilian Palermitan faction didn't disappear it remained in the background just as it did under Anastasia. The NY groups are organic and multifaceted entities, very different from Phila. which is 80% centered on one racket.

How would you divide the Gambinos and Genoveses in percentages of Sicillians, Calabrians, Neapolitans and other mainlanders, both historically and in recent times?

My understanding has always been that the Gambinos were one of the most Sicillian of the Five Families, along with the Bonannos ofcourse.

I can't divide them by percentage, there's not enough information. The Gambinos remain the most Palermitan linked family but that's not what are exclusively. They have had other factions (Sciaccatani etc) since 1900.

It could be possible if we look at all known members per family at a certain point in time (say the 1950s) and then look at their individual ancestry and then simply do the math. The information is there but it will be a lot of work...

Seems like all the original families were predominantly Sicillian, but then gradually absorbed other Italians in the 1910s and 20s, ofcourse basing this on your research. The old Morello group absorbed the Cammoristi (possibly including Genovese) who ultimately rose to high raking positions. Seems like the mainlanders were basically in charge of the Genovese family in the 50s and beyond..

No. We don't have complete membership lists and before 1960 when the FBI really started gathering intel, it's speculative. You can go to Limey's page and find something very similar (more than a few things are wrong but it's a good starting point) but we're dealing with fragments of intel. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

All the families were Sicilian, the Mafia comes from Sicily. Each and every organized crime family in the USA (and that includes Chicago) were founded by Sicilian expatriates. Actually Rochester by Calabrian-Americans with the blessing of Pittsburgh but by that point, everyone was Ital and there's no significance to their lineage.

Neapolitans are a different breed from Sicilians and Calabrians, they come from a more urbanized area (the farthest north of Italy compared with the other two areas.) They don't really go for the cloak and daggers shit, that began going out the window in the late 1800's. And by that point the Camorra was so popular and well known that plays were performed about it, their tattoos and hierarchy were dissected. They were, by 1890, in very much the same place as the American LCN is today: severely weakened and anyone here can rattle off the hierarchy and 9 times out of 10 any new captain or boss is someone we- civilians- already have written down. We amateurs don't have all the info but Pogo's charts is something that very few individuals would have the knowledge to do 30-40 years ago. It can no longer be a "secret society" just like the camorra could no longer be a century prior.

[CabriniGreen]

@wiseguy
On the point of the Calabrian management.....
Are you sure you read that correct? I'm pretty sure she meant transplanted Calabrians, like that Duo from Queens... Not Americans with Calabrian ancestry....
Why would that matter in NY today? Unless they were/are relatives of these clans...


We've had Calabrese in positions of power, Anastasia and Costello the most obvious examples....

[scagghiuni]

cosa nostra absorbed some neapolitans and calabrians in the states like ndrangheta absordeb some sicilian in north italy and australia, just opportunity
at the beginning of 1900 100% of american mafia members were sicilians, after 1920s the vast majority was sicilian with some neapolitans and calabrians

[Wiseguy]

@wiseguy
On the point of the Calabrian management.....
Are you sure you read that correct? I'm pretty sure she meant transplanted Calabrians, like that Duo from Queens... Not Americans with Calabrian ancestry....
Why would that matter in NY today? Unless they were/are relatives of these clans...


We've had Calabrese in positions of power, Anastasia and Costello the most obvious examples....

Well, here she speaks in the context of the rankings of the families -

Since approximately 2013, according to sources in the NYPD speaking to Jane’s on 16 April, US authorities have observed a “shift towards a Calabrian management, primarily in the rankings of the Gambino and Genovese families; these people have always been here…but they now can raise to a position of power."

But the next part seems to suggest what you're talking about. Though it she be pointed out she got the Genovese family mixed up with the Bonanno family in regards to Operation New Bridge -

This has been the case most notably since 2014, when Operation New Bridge – a joint FBI-Italian project –uncovered a drug-trafficking network importing cocaine to Europe and heroin to the US. This network was headed by Calabrian mafia clans, using Gambino affiliates tasked with debt collection and money laundering and Genovese associates handling the actual movement of drugs.

[CabriniGreen]

Yeah, just, I dont think American LCN would hold you back, if you were Calabrese, would they? She said, NOW they can raise to a position of power? They couldnt before? I figured she meant guys from Italy.....

I guess it depends on the boss, or capo...

Quick question, Operation Colombo, did it even touch the Schirripa clan? Are they still in NY?

Also, I'm still not sure on what she was saying with the Siderno group, and the Gioiosa group as far as NY. It's not real clear to me , what was your take?