Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Lupara]

Wouldn't be the first time a mob writer/author has over hyped their subject matter. In fact that seems to be the rule with guys like Capeci and Anastasia being the rare exception.


Pogo

I guess we will find out sooner rather than later.

[Wiseguy]

As I've said, I see no reason why the Buffalo factions in Canada cannot continue to exist. Todaro, Jr. may very well be a sort of Michael Corleone of Part III, distancing himself from actual participation in criminal activity but still holding sway in the underworld.

That's what it appears to me to be the case. As I said, all this stuff seems to be on the Canadian side of the border. I say "all this stuff" but, again, we're talking about a single case for the most part.

So when people say this "proves that the Buffalo family is still active," it's misleading because it makes an assumption about the family in Buffalo that has not been proven even with the new info.

Come on Ivy, I'm just fucking with you.
You know I love and respect you.

Fair enough.

If I come across as uppity about this, it's because (as I said) we've been down this same road with Detroit. Pogo and I took a lot of flack from people on the RD forum for years because we didn't go with certain claims about the family because an objective look at all the evidence didn't warrant it. But I think time has proven us correct and will continue to. Don't be surprised if we don't see any additional cases regarding Buffalo anytime soon.

[antimafia]

@antimafia

Good post, a few more questions, if you guys dont mind....

The one day hearing.... and the revelations about the brothers possibly being in different families, that DEFINITELY wasnt reported on the boards, right?
I feel like the discussion- conversation would have went differently.

On the point of the brothers affiliation, two points here...

1. I've said previously that if in fact they were Bonnano members, it MUST have happened recently. Like within the last 3-5 years. No one on the boards really would have known that, it's why I found it strange when everyone insisted they MUST be Bonnano members. Like, how would you possibly KNOW for sure?
I had the Bonnano possibility third, after Buffalo or an Ndrangheta ndrine....



2. What would be the advantage exactly for Domenico to transfer from the Bonnanos to Buffalo?

And if one were.to say something like " Greater control in Canada", I gotta ask.. Arnt the Bonnanos supposed to already have a Canadian crew active?
Why wouldn't they just make him the Canadian crew capo? ( This could have been precisely what Joe Violi was torn between, being the Bonnanos Canadian capo, or operating probably mostly autonomously under his brother..)

I think if anything, you might have it backwards, they might have been trying to transfer from Buffalo TO the Bonnanos, maybe. What were the tweets you posted?
That the brothers might have lost standing BECAUSE they were at a Bonnano induction?


3. Do you think the Canadians would surrender the contruction rackets, and the sportsbook to the Bonnanos? Thi goes to whether or not the Bonnanos want to control Montreal.

4. CAN you control Montreal WITHOUT either major connections to the drug markets, be it distributors ( the hells, the gangs, Scorpions, I.D..soldiers,ect...) or suppliers/importers, Or a signifigant physical presence in the province?

Giuseppe Violi's one-day hearing back on June 1 was open to the media and the public. I did not attend. A few days later I was simply told by someone who attended the hearing that the Violi brothers were not necessarily on the same page. (I was also told not to tweet or post about this until more information came out. What I was told, although somewhat cryptic, might have been under a publication ban; so I'm glad I kept my mouth shut--my integrity is too important for me to sacrifice just so that I can be the first to post on Twitter or on these boards.) Please note that I interpreted "not on the same page" in different ways--apart from what I wrote on the previous page, I also wondered whether the Violi brothers didn't see eye to eye, had a rift, and so on. With published details emerging from Domenico Violi's hearing yesterday, I now know what was meant by "not on the same page."

As for your other questions, I'll try to answer throughout the day. Here's my response to your point 1 above:

1. Vincenzo Morena's Bonanno induction ceremony was taped in November 2015. Because Anna Sergi had access to court filings that show Domenico and Giuseppe Violi attended it, my and others' feeling, opinion, or hunch was (is?) that the two brothers were already made into the Bonanno Family by virtue of their attending. A strong argument can be made that deducing their status as made Bonannos is more than a feeling, opinion, or hunch. If you assert--I'm not pointing you out personally--that the Violi brothers were Buffalo Family members at the time they attended Morena's induction into the Bonannos, then you are either in one of two camps: 1) you believe that any made member of the Buffalo Family has magical powers that permit him to witness another American LCN family's secret induction ceremony, or 2) you are an 'ndrangheta fanboy who believes that Calabrians in Canada who are unquestioningly presumed to be 'ndrangheta members can, also because of magical powers, simultaneously be made into an American LCN family.

It's unfortunate that Morena was not asked to testify at Domencio Violi's hearing yesterday. Morena could have shed light on what the Violi brothers' mafia affiliation was at the time of his induction ceremony in November 2015 and on whether he had evidence to corroborate what Domenico Violi told him in October 2017 or just a week later about Violi's having been made underboss of the Buffalo Family, the decision having come about after consultation with the Commission, and so on. When you read the following paragraphs from the article Humphreys wrote yesterday,

Violi acknowledged through an agreed statement of facts that he met numerous times with the informant, who was a trusted associate and then official “made” member of the Bonanno Family. He did not, however, adopt the Crown’s allegations of far-reaching Mafia involvement.

The conversations were recorded between 2015 and 2017 and the information could not be independently corroborated.

you should be left with more questions than answers--that is, if you're objective. It's okay to lean one way or another, but we can't outright assert that Domenico Violi is a made member of the Buffalo Family (at what point he was made is also open to speculation) and was then promoted to underboss in October 2017. Similarly, I can't assert that Violi and his brother are made Bonannos, especially in light of new claims that were uncovered in Domenico Violi's hearing yesterday. Some posters might recall that in a very significant case involving some Luppino members in the early 1980s, the Crown was able to get a county court judge in Hamilton to rule on August 30, 1982 that the 'ndrangheta exists in Canada (the word 'Ndrina was used in the trial, though, so that's the word the judge used) but that Giacomo Luppino's sons Antonio and John, although charged with and essentially sentenced for fraud, could not be found--based on a lack of evidence--to be members of the 'ndrangheta.

[antimafia]

with and *eventually sentenced for fraud

[Lupara]

As I've said, I see no reason why the Buffalo factions in Canada cannot continue to exist. Todaro, Jr. may very well be a sort of Michael Corleone of Part III, distancing himself from actual participation in criminal activity but still holding sway in the underworld.

That's what it appears to me to be the case. As I said, all this stuff seems to be on the Canadian side of the border. I say "all this stuff" but, again, we're talking about a single case for the most part.

So when people say this "proves that the Buffalo family is still active," it's misleading because it makes an assumption about the family in Buffalo that has not been proven even with the new info.

Come on Ivy, I'm just fucking with you.
You know I love and respect you.

Fair enough.

If I come across as uppity about this, it's because (as I said) we've been down this same road with Detroit. Pogo and I took a lot of flack from people on the RD forum for years because we didn't go with certain claims about the family because an objective look at all the evidence didn't warrant it. But I think time has proven us correct and will continue to. Don't be surprised if we don't see any additional cases regarding Buffalo anytime soon.

Seems like we are agreeing. This all comes down to perspective.

[Pogo The Clown]

Another thing to conisder is why is all this suddenly coming out now? This bust was a year ago and had several writes ups about it at the time. Capeci in partiular has written a lot about it and was even the first (if I'm not mistaken) to ID the informant as Vincenzo Morena. Yet in none of his write ups on this case has he made any mention of these guy's being in contact with the Commission? He was the first to break the news about the Commission meeting in 2000 so you figure he would have mentioned it somewhere along the line.


Pogo

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

All kidding aside, anti-mafia and Wiseguy both make valid points.
The main thing is we simply do not have all the info yet from the
tape transcripts. Even when/if they are released, they may not
provide the details we are all looking for regarding family affiliations
of both the Violi and Luppino brothers. The information provided by
both of the articles does seem to indicate that (if true & valid)
Joe, Jr. has quietly held control of the remnants of the Buffalo Family,
and MAY be trying to re-establish the family as a viable entity.
I admit that I will be surprised if the Buffalo Family makes some
sort of comeback, or was there in the background all along.
I was solidly in the 'non-viable' camp. I am now open to changing
that position. And am looking forward to any and all new
information that comes to light.

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

Another thing to conisder is why is all this suddenly coming out now? This bust was a year ago and had several writes ups about it at the time. Capeci in partiular has written a lot about it and was even the first (if I'm not mistaken) to ID the informant as Vincenzo Morena. Yet in none of his write ups on this case has he made any mention of these guy's being in contact with the Commission? He was the first to break the news about the Commission meeting in 2000 so you figure he would have mentioned it somewhere along the line.


Pogo

The info not coming out before may be related
to the gag imposed by the Crown that Anti-mafia
mentioned earlier.

[Wiseguy]

Giuseppe Violi's one-day hearing back on June 1 was open to the media and the public. I did not attend. A few days later I was simply told by someone who attended the hearing that the Violi brothers were not necessarily on the same page. (I was also told not to tweet or post about this until more information came out. What I was told, although somewhat cryptic, might have been under a publication ban; so I'm glad I kept my mouth shut--my integrity is too important for me to sacrifice just so that I can be the first to post on Twitter or on these boards.) Please note that I interpreted "not on the same page" in different ways--apart from what I wrote on the previous page, I also wondered whether the Violi brothers didn't see eye to eye, had a rift, and so on. With published details emerging from Domenico Violi's hearing yesterday, I now know what was meant by "not on the same page."

As for your other questions, I'll try to answer throughout the day. Here's my response to your point 1 above:

1. Vincenzo Morena's Bonanno induction ceremony was taped in November 2015. Because Anna Sergi had access to court filings that show Domenico and Giuseppe Violi attended it, my and others' feeling, opinion, or hunch was (is?) that the two brothers were already made into the Bonanno Family by virtue of their attending. A strong argument can be made that deducing their status as made Bonannos is more than a feeling, opinion, or hunch. If you assert--I'm not pointing you out personally--that the Violi brothers were Buffalo Family members at the time they attended Morena's induction into the Bonannos, then you are either in one of two camps: 1) you believe that any made member of the Buffalo Family has magical powers that permit him to witness another American LCN family's secret induction ceremony, or 2) you are an 'ndrangheta fanboy who believes that Calabrians in Canada who are unquestioningly presumed to be 'ndrangheta members can, also because of magical powers, simultaneously be made into an American LCN family.

It's unfortunate that Morena was not asked to testify at Domencio Violi's hearing yesterday. Morena could have shed light on what the Violi brothers' mafia affiliation was at the time of his induction ceremony in November 2015 and on whether he had evidence to corroborate what Domenico Violi told him in October 2017 or just a week later about Violi's having been made underboss of the Buffalo Family, the decision having come about after consultation with the Commission, and so on. When you read the following paragraphs from the article Humphreys wrote yesterday,

Violi acknowledged through an agreed statement of facts that he met numerous times with the informant, who was a trusted associate and then official “made” member of the Bonanno Family. He did not, however, adopt the Crown’s allegations of far-reaching Mafia involvement.

The conversations were recorded between 2015 and 2017 and the information could not be independently corroborated.

you should be left with more questions than answers--that is, if you're objective. It's okay to lean one way or another, but we can't outright assert that Domenico Violi is a made member of the Buffalo Family (at what point he was made is also open to speculation) and was then promoted to underboss in October 2017. Similarly, I can't assert that Violi and his brother are made Bonannos, especially in light of new claims that were uncovered in Domenico Violi's hearing yesterday. Some posters might recall that in a very significant case involving some Luppino members in the early 1980s, the Crown was able to get a county court judge in Hamilton to rule on August 30, 1982 that the 'ndrangheta exists in Canada (the word 'Ndrina was used in the trial, though, so that's the word the judge used) but that Giacomo Luppino's sons Antonio and John, although charged with and essentially sentenced for fraud, could not be found--based on a lack of evidence--to be members of the 'ndrangheta.

Wow. Talk about confusing.

Another thing to conisder is why is all this suddenly coming out now? This bust was a year ago and had several writes ups about it at the time. Capeci in partiular has written a lot about it and was even the first (if I'm not mistaken) to ID the informant as Vincenzo Morena. Yet in none of his write ups on this case has he made any mention of these guy's being in contact with the Commission? He was the first to break the news about the Commission meeting in 2000 so you figure he would have mentioned it somewhere along the line.

Probably too much to hope he weighs in by this Thursday.

[Hailbritain]

Already a thread on this.


viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3162&start=140

Really wish people would at least try to look and see if something has been posted already before starting a new thread. Can this one be merged with the one already in existence?

If the information in that article is accurate,
a new chart can be made. And several of the
forum gods here owe apologies to other so-called
clueless, fan boy posters. LOL. Looks like it might
be time to make a new chart fellas:

Buffalo Crime Family 2018
BOSS - Joe Todaro, Jr.
UB - Paolo Violi, Jr. (IP)
Capo - Rocco Luppino (Hamilton decina)
Capo - ?????? (Buffalo decina)
Soldiers: 25 made men (I'll keep the # conservative & include the admin
in order to keep certain forum gods from getting uncomfortable)

I'm gonna shuffle on off to Buffalo until all the bullets fall...

Bogus internet charts already, huh?

To be fair, one could look at the other thread and think it's specifically about 'Ndrangheta affairs in Canada while believing this one is about the Buffalo mob.

Exactly snakes , that’s why I posted it in a separate thread . To start a debate about the buffalo mob . Jesus Christ

[Pogo The Clown]

Another thing to conisder is why is all this suddenly coming out now? This bust was a year ago and had several writes ups about it at the time. Capeci in partiular has written a lot about it and was even the first (if I'm not mistaken) to ID the informant as Vincenzo Morena. Yet in none of his write ups on this case has he made any mention of these guy's being in contact with the Commission? He was the first to break the news about the Commission meeting in 2000 so you figure he would have mentioned it somewhere along the line.

The info not coming out before may be related
to the gag imposed by the Crown that Anti-mafia
mentioned earlier.

Yeah but it was released in the American press. Capeci and others obviously had access to Morenas tape transcripts since they posted excerpts from it in their reportings. Capeci also ID'd the informant as Morena. So he had access to the info. Seems really strange that he wouldn't have mentioned all of these revelations especially the part about them being in contact with the Commission. Instead it gets mentioned a year later in the Canadian National Inquierer? Again really strange.


Pogo

[gohnjotti]

I don't know how relevant this is, but neither of the Canadian newspapers were able to figure out who the informer was (obviously Vincenzo Morena).

[johnny_scootch]

The Globe & Mail is the biggest Canadian newspaper in terms of circulation as of 2015. I'm not from Canada so I'm not going to argue that the National Post is or isn't 'The Canadian National Enquirer' but I do find it odd that no one has ever questioned articles from this publication before. I'm positive you can't say the same for the Globe & Mail which fully corroborates the story from the National Post which is Canada's 4th largest newspaper (2015). I love that some of you guys won't give an inch no matter what, I respect it.

Interesting bits from the Globe article

To this day, according to Project OTremens court documents, the Violis’ uncles Natale and Rocco Luppino are both “made” (that is, official) members of Buffalo’s Todaro family.

But despite Mr. Violi’s promotion, his younger brother remained torn about his own path in the underworld, according to the transcript excerpts. Joey wondered whether he should follow his brother and uncles into the Buffalo crime family or uphold his father’s legacy by going with the New York-based Bonanno family. He feared he’d be forced to choose.
In the meantime, the documents allege, Joey ran his own “criminal crew” and paid “tribute” (a portion of the profit) to his brother.

If Joe was paying tribute to his brother it means he was 'with' him as an associate and probably means he was made into the Buffalo family. I don't see any reason why Dom and Joe as Buffalo members wouldn't be able to attend the Bonanno ceremony considering the circumstances. I'd also venture to say the mysterious 'John' who also attended the ceremony was John Zancocchio.

I'd urge anyone interested to re-read some the articles because it looks like the are constantly being updated. Adrian Humphreys revised article states:

The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated as the last reputed boss, Leonard (The Calzone) Falzone, was ailing. He died in 2016. The reorganization seemed to begin in 2014.

Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

Violi said he beat out 30 other guys to become Underboss, the documents claim. All would have to be “made members” of the Buffalo Family to be considered for the post.

The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave.

In keeping with mob tradition, in an attempt to protect the boss, Violi and the informant sometimes made a hand gesture instead of speaking Todaro’s name: they would put their fingers to their mouth as if puffing a cigar or cigarette, the documents allege.

There was debate, according to the informant’s alleged conversations with Violi’s younger brother, Giuseppe (Joe or Joey) Violi, on whether he should be “made” by the Bonanno Family, to which their father belonged, or by Buffalo.

[johnny_scootch]

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/439q ... mob-member

[antimafia]

[snip]

If Joe was paying tribute to his brother it means he was 'with' him as an associate and probably means he was made into the Buffalo family. I don't see any reason why Dom and Joe as Buffalo members wouldn't be able to attend the Bonanno ceremony considering the circumstances. I'd also venture to say the mysterious 'John' who also attended the ceremony was John Zancocchio.

Since when do American LCN families allow at their induction ceremonies made members from other families or other secret societies? Do you have any evidence of this? When was the last time two American LCN families had a joint making ceremony? The Violi brothers' presence at a Bonanno ceremony is highly unusual.

There is no reason to guess that Zancocchio was one of the at-least-five attendees at Morena's ceremony, as Humphreys alluded to this in his article yesterday, even naming Zancocchio. gohnjotti also mentioned Zanoccchio yesterday as a result of reading Humphreys's article. (Humphreys's older November 2017 article regarding Project OTremens indicated there was someone present at the ceremony with first name "John.")

So if Domenico Violi didn't get made into the Buffalo Family till January 2015, as he stated, what was his status before then? when Sal Montagna was dealing with him prior to being murdered in November 2011? Was Montagna dealing with a Buffalo Family associate or a Bonanno Family associate/member? And if yes to the former, why was a Buffalo Family associate allegedly involved in the murders of high-profile Montreal Mafia members?