SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 am
I’m of the opinion this blue collar/white collar faction divide is mostly bullshit emanating from Gotti’s bullshit that that was a driving force in his ascension.
John wacked Paul because of the Ruggerio drug tapes and he knew he and Gene were going to be clipped. That’s why they hit Paul.
The ‘justification’ of Paul being white collar, family divide is, in my opinion, simply to cover up the above and mostly myth grown and fostered by gotti.
I’ve no doubt Dellacroce perhaps wanted the spot and met with Paul over it, but the idea the family was divided among crews posing various allegiance to one ‘side’ or the other, I think is bullshit.
Opinion.
I believe you are correct, in that Gotti was in a kill or be killed position. But I believe he did take advantage of the fact that there was two main factions to the family. Carlo I believe let Dellacrocce run his faction of the Family.
So who other than Dellacroce and his crew belonged to this faction? Weren't the remaining Anastasia guys a minority group in the family with the few who contested Carlo's installment being killed? How come Dellacroce was given so much power for his role if he represented a minority faction in the family that could've simply be pushed aside?
It seems to me that both loyalists groups were relatively small with the majority of the family on the fence.
If I'm wrong then I would like someone to provide me an outline of the division within the family.
Well, basically in the "Manhattan faction" were the ones who had come up under Neil when he was a captain and later underboss. With time, his influence grew and was allowed two caporegimes directly answering to him. Joe N. Gallo had something similiar with atleast five captains reporting to him. Mike Caiazza and Carmine Fatico were the two captains directly under Dellacroce. Their regimes consisted mostly of made guys and assocaites who had previously been under Neil. Around 1983/1984 Caiazza was replaced and shelved and the Fatico crew had been taken over by Gotti.
It´s wrong to label the Family in two different factions like there was a war going on.There was no war. And I´m not sure where the labels "white collar faction" and "blue collar faction" origins from. Both Castellano and Dellacroce had underlings who were well versed in both types of crime. It seems it has been overblown by posters on these forums who were hoping to get real life out of a Mafia video game. First time I heard about the "Manhattan faction" versus the "Brooklyn faction" was when Dom Montiglio talked about it in his book and in a documentary. From that, the political and (if you may) the philosophical differences between Castellano and Dellacroce got overblown.
Pogo The Clown wrote:He was indicted in the Commission case. He was also indicted in the Gambino Hierarchy case in 1984 and another separate racketeering case in 1985. If he didn't die he would have gone to prison for life in 1986.
Pogo
Who do you think would've taken over as acting (?) boss?
Paul had Tommy Gambino or Bilotti in mind no?
Interesting scenario. Gotti may still have made a move on Bilotti, but then Paul would've ordered him killed from prison, and with Gigante on his side Gotti would've probably be killed instead.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 am
I’m of the opinion this blue collar/white collar faction divide is mostly bullshit emanating from Gotti’s bullshit that that was a driving force in his ascension.
John wacked Paul because of the Ruggerio drug tapes and he knew he and Gene were going to be clipped. That’s why they hit Paul.
The ‘justification’ of Paul being white collar, family divide is, in my opinion, simply to cover up the above and mostly myth grown and fostered by gotti.
I’ve no doubt Dellacroce perhaps wanted the spot and met with Paul over it, but the idea the family was divided among crews posing various allegiance to one ‘side’ or the other, I think is bullshit.
Opinion.
I believe you are correct, in that Gotti was in a kill or be killed position. But I believe he did take advantage of the fact that there was two main factions to the family. Carlo I believe let Dellacrocce run his faction of the Family.
So who other than Dellacroce and his crew belonged to this faction? Weren't the remaining Anastasia guys a minority group in the family with the few who contested Carlo's installment being killed? How come Dellacroce was given so much power for his role if he represented a minority faction in the family that could've simply be pushed aside?
It seems to me that both loyalists groups were relatively small with the majority of the family on the fence.
If I'm wrong then I would like someone to provide me an outline of the division within the family.
Well, basically in the "Manhattan faction" were the ones who had come up under Neil when he was a captain and later underboss. With time, his influence grew and was allowed two caporegimes directly answering to him. Joe N. Gallo had something similiar with atleast five captains reporting to him. Mike Caiazza and Carmine Fatico were the two captains directly under Dellacroce. Their regimes consisted mostly of made guys and assocaites who had previously been under Neil. Around 1983/1984 Caiazza was replaced and shelved and the Fatico crew had been taken over by Gotti.
It´s wrong to label the Family in two different factions like there was a war going on.There was no war. And I´m not sure where the labels "white collar faction" and "blue collar faction" origins from. Both Castellano and Dellacroce had underlings who were well versed in both types of crime. It seems it has been overblown by posters on these forums who were hoping to get real life out of a Mafia video game. First time I heard about the "Manhattan faction" versus the "Brooklyn faction" was when Dom Montiglio talked about it in his book and in a documentary. From that, the political and (if you may) the philosophical differences between Castellano and Dellacroce got overblown.
I was hoping you chime in since this is your expertise.
I may very well have this "white collar" vs. "blue collar" faction from Wikipedia. Let's declare it bullshit.
Montiglio seems to have a hard-on for making up these stories. He also stated in one of the NGC docu's that there was a "war" on the streets between those factions after Anastasia was killed when it was just a change of guard with some settling of accounts that happens "every five, ten years to help get rid of some of the bad blood". [emoji2]
Lupara wrote: ↑Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:55 am
Who do you think would've taken over as acting (?) boss?
Paul had Tommy Gambino or Bilotti in mind no?
Interesting scenario. Gotti may still have made a move on Bilotti, but then Paul would've ordered him killed from prison, and with Gigante on his side Gotti would've probably be killed instead.
Whay do you think?
Originally it seems that it was going to be a ruling panel with Tommy Gambino, Bilotti and Gotti. Soon after Gotti was dropped from consideration (likely due to the mounting trouble with his crew and the tapes). It was Castellanos plan that Tommy Gambino would be Acting Boss and Bilotti UnderBoss. Though that was with the knowledge that Dellacroce was dying. If he doesn't die maybe BIlotti only become the Acting UnderBoss? Though I don't imagine Dellacroce keeping his rank for long with a life sentence. If he lives maybe Gotti gets demoted and his crew disbanded since I believe that was Castellanos intention. Was it ever confirmed that Castellano was planning to have Gotti killed?
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
I always thought big Paul was going to have gene hottie, Angelo Ruggiero and john carneglia killed and the rest of the begin crew disbanded with John gotti being demoted? I also thought that if Neil dellacroce was healthier then he too would have possibly been shelved if he had tried to defend the begin crew
Lupara wrote: ↑Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:55 am
Who do you think would've taken over as acting (?) boss?
Paul had Tommy Gambino or Bilotti in mind no?
Interesting scenario. Gotti may still have made a move on Bilotti, but then Paul would've ordered him killed from prison, and with Gigante on his side Gotti would've probably be killed instead.
Whay do you think?
Originally it seems that it was going to be a ruling panel with Tommy Gambino, Bilotti and Gotti. Soon after Gotti was dropped from consideration (likely due to the mounting trouble with his crew and the tapes). It was Castellanos plan that Tommy Gambino would be Acting Boss and Bilotti UnderBoss. Though that was with the knowledge that Dellacroce was dying. If he doesn't die maybe BIlotti only become the Acting UnderBoss? Though I don't imagine Dellacroce keeping his rank for long with a life sentence. If he lives maybe Gotti gets demoted and his crew disbanded since I believe that was Castellanos intention. Was it ever confirmed that Castellano was planning to have Gotti killed?
Pogo
Never heard of the possible ruling panel with Gotti on it before, but if you say it I believe it. Yes it was Tommy Gambino and Bilotti that we're going to be Acting Boss and Underboss. Never heard anything about a definite death penalty for the Gotti's Carneglia and Ruggerio. It looks like Gotti was a case of being in the right place at the right time. But also Gotti, though stupid, in ways and turned out to be a shitty boss in most people's opinions, did have balls to pull off what he did and seems to be LCN through and through.
If this ruling panel with Gotti was considered it must've been in 1984 when Castellano's legal troubles started, but weren't the Ruggiero tapes already known to Castellano then? How does it makes sense Gotti was considered as a ruling panel member while at the same time Castellano was looking to have his men killed for dealing drugs, break up his crew and demote or even kill him? Conflicting information from different sources perhaps?
And what was the relationship between Gotti and Castellano before the Ruggiero fiasco? Again according to popular history they never got along well (Gotti 1996, etc.) but was this really the case? Difficult to see Gotti getting bumped up to capo if Castellano always hated his guts. Apparantly Castellano was reluctant to even make DeMeo while one of his favorites Gaggi vouched for him.. Did Dellacroce insist on Gotti's installment as capo and Castellano went along to maintain a good relationship with his underboss?
I think that Dellacroce and his men were more disgrunted with Castellano than Castellano´s men with Dellacroce. That´s mostly because Neils men thought that he had suffered a great injustice when he was looked over as Carlo Gambino´s successor. (But the dissatisfaction can probably be traced back even further.) Not that his position (underboss) would have automatically made him the next in line (it doesn´t work that way) but rather because they thought he was better qualified than Paul. Obviously, the both of them didn´t like eachother but like I said above, there was no war between them.
I don´t think it was Castellano who promoted Gotti but Dellacroce. That´s the beauty of the deal he had with Castellano. He could do whatever he wanted with the two decinas that was reporting to him. We saw that for example in the case of Mike Caiazza, it was Dellacroce who shelved him, not Castellano, after Caiazza had appointed Buddy Laforte acting captain without consulting Neil. So it looks like Dellacroce had a free reign with the two captains reporting to him.
HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:43 pm
Obviously, the both of them didn´t like eachother but like I said above, there was no war between them.
I don´t think it was Castellano who promoted Gotti but Dellacroce. That´s the beauty of the deal he had with Castellano. He could do whatever he wanted with the two decinas that was reporting to him. We saw that for example in the case of Mike Caiazza, it was Dellacroce who shelved him, not Castellano, after Caiazza had appointed Buddy Laforte acting captain without consulting Neil. So it looks like Dellacroce had a free reign with the two captains reporting to him.
This transcript of Neil & Paul regarding the Laforte situation, lends credance to the fact that they were still amicable at least face to face, as late as June of 1985:
Neil: "This fuckin punk called me senile.. I think I'd kill him.. Paul, if it wasnt for you, i'd kill him."
Paul: "Watch out for people telling you stories. Sometimes people tell us stories." (indicating Laforte had denied being disrespectful, while soothing Dellacroce's anger)
As we know Laforte was demoted, and just like Pete Tambone being chased, Castellano had OK'd these moves by Neil.
Don't really see how Dellacroce could have been surprised Castellano was chosen to be Boss. As we know Castellano was serving as the Acting Boss since 1967 and was defacto Boss by 1975 with Carlo's health taking a turn for the worse. I think Dellacroce being angry at being passed over was more media hype than anything.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:02 am
Don't really see how Dellacroce could have been surprised Castellano was chosen to be Boss. As we know Castellano was serving as the Acting Boss since 1967 and was defacto Boss by 1975 with Carlo's health taking a turn for the worse. I think Dellacroce being angry at being passed over was more media hype than anything.
Pogo
I agree 100 per cent. It kind of fits in the John Gotti story line. Like I said Carlo got him to his side, must of liked what he seen in Neil, eventually made him underboss. Pauly was acting boss shortly after and related to Carlo. Couldn't have been a surprise he became boss. Maybe felt a little slighted he didn't get position, maybe personally Paul wasn't his cup of tea, but I think it was not a big factor at all. Gotti if anything might have been trying to start trouble between the two of them.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 am
I’m of the opinion this blue collar/white collar faction divide is mostly bullshit emanating from Gotti’s bullshit that that was a driving force in his ascension.
John wacked Paul because of the Ruggerio drug tapes and he knew he and Gene were going to be clipped. That’s why they hit Paul.
The ‘justification’ of Paul being white collar, family divide is, in my opinion, simply to cover up the above and mostly myth grown and fostered by gotti.
I’ve no doubt Dellacroce perhaps wanted the spot and met with Paul over it, but the idea the family was divided among crews posing various allegiance to one ‘side’ or the other, I think is bullshit.
