Valachi's non-NYC membership estimates

[B.]

Along with identifying a partial list of US families outside of NYC, Valachi was asked for his own estimation of membership totals in non-NYC families at the time he was still on the streets.

Estimates:
Philadelphia - 100
Boston - 18 to 20
Chicago - 150
Cleveland - 40 or 50
Los Angeles - 40
Tampa - 10
Newark - 100
Detroit - "No idea"
Buffalo - 100 to 125
Utica - 80 to 100
New Orleans - "Very few"
San Francisco - Wasn't asked
Milwaukee - Wasn't asked


Thoughts:
- The Philadelphia number isn't too far off, as the Philly family looks to have had up to 90 members at their peak. It's possible there were some older members never ID'd as well.

- If by Newark he means the DeCavalcantes, it's pretty far off, as DeCavalcante claimed fewer than 40 members at the time he took over just a couple years after Valachi flipped and Vinny Palermo later claimed their cap was 70, but he may be including NJ-based members of NYC families. It's worth noting that Valachi interacted with either the Newark family and/or an early incarnation of the DeCavs around the time of the Castellammarese War when he was ordered to help NJ boss "Don Steve" Badami.

- Valachi was pretty familiar with Buffalo and his estimate doesn't seem to be far off if we include all of Buffalo's territories, including Utica, but...

- Along with identifying them as their own family, the Utica estimate is crazy. As I said in the Utica topic, I personally lean toward the possibility of them having been an early family before becoming a Buffalo decina, but even in their early days if they were independent that is an insanely high number for any era, especially since it is in addition to Buffalo. Hard to imagine Buffalo's number being so high, too, if he's not including Utica which was one of, if not the largest Buffalo crews outside of Buffalo/NF. He claimed at one point to have been familiar with Utica since the 1930s, which is interesting and gives some credence to the idea that they were a separate family at one point.

- I don't have enough offhand knowledge about the other families he mentioned to say, but in passing none of them stand out too much. Tampa was a small family but I believe they still had more than 10 at this point and New Orleans was small but hard to say how small he meant by "very few". I would guess he is only talking about Boston and not Boston+Providence with that estimate but hard to say.

- His non-answer about Detroit stands out. He claimed he was "not familiar" enough with Detroit to give a number, though he did identify them as a family. When pressed, he said he had "no idea" about their membership totals. This is strange, as it indicates that he DID feel familiar enough with the other families to throw out an estimate.

[SonnyBlackstein]

So I stopped reading at your ‘Utica’ analysis.

I was trying to stop earlier.

What, the fuck, would Valachi know about the restaurants two streets over, from, his, house, let alone, ummm... the respective membership of the fucking LA family.

Are you kidding.

This was 1950’s NYC. He wasn’t a Joe Bonanno, he wasnt even a half assed Capo who once when he was twelve took a dare and got a bus to Manhattan, to the life long amazement of his geographically retarded brethren, he was a grunt in a borough which knew no other boroughs other than their own. And that’s IF they could name the street three over in Queens, if you lived in Brooklyn.

Asking this chooch his opinion about the size of LA or... Utica is like asking his favourite colour.

He has one but it doesn’t mean shit.



Love to the B.

[Lupara]

Sonny makes a good point. When I started reading the numbers I also thought 'how could he possibly know this? '. Still an interesting debate always because as you know I love numbers. [emoji2]

Could this be the same as the feds knowing most of the names given on the Five Families charts and making it out as if Valachi provided them those names? Like Valachi knew all these people in the other families not to mention his own extended crime family. He was just an average soldier not a Nick Gentile (the Indiana Jones of the mob).

[Angelo Santino]

In Valachi's defense this was in the 1960's when law enforcement wasn't fully evolved, thus allowing for the "secret society" to be more open e.g. social functions, less of a buffer system in place pre-RICO. This was an era where had John Gotti or Joe Massino existed, their cases would have turned out very differently and they would have faced years, not life. This all goes into the cultural mindset of the time: wiseguy's talked to one another, as we see from MF, the FBI was already up on much of it, as was the FBN before them. And Valachi, a 30 year member would have picked up what he heard here and there. Does anyone think he personally knew each and every individual on those charts? Of course not.

Re. Buffalo and Utica, it is interesting how he gives the same number of members for both. Makes me wonder if he heard something like: "Utica's got 100 members behind them" referring to the combined force of the Magaddino family. Just speculation on my part.

And one thing I'd like to note: we've never gotten a confiscated list of members from a FBI-raided bosses house. There was Junior's 'proposed members' lists but nothing ever to indicate that "they got these tremendous books" like Joey Cantalupo stated. I can't envision anyone doing a head count so I speculate most of the numbers are approximations +/- 10. Unless it's a very small family.

Re. Tampa, I don't believe they were ever very large. Seems like their hierarchy was very much like Cleveland (more on that soon) in that they had very few made members.

Re. New Orleans, hard to believe this city was once the Mafia epicenter of America. By the 60's they were dwindling too.

When membership dwindles, you start seeing regimes disappear and it begins to function like a network with so-called capos basically being statused members with no members under him but still run various interests. It's not New York and I don't think other Families looked to them and felt the need to match their numbers. Networks of 10-20 members can and have been influential, but less so looking at them from the prism of a NY Mafia model.

[aleksandrored]

Strange he did not mention the Patriarca family itself ,only Boston, I may be mistaken but I believe that even though it was only Boston there were more people at the time.

[B.]

This was from live testimony where Valachi was asked to give estimates. He gave these numbers off the top of his head, so it wasn't pulled from a list or document in front of him, or prompted by anything other than the senate's questions.

I agree it's ridiculous to think he could give reasonable estimates on many of these families, but he wasn't confined to one street corner his entire life. He had been a made member for over 30 years, as Christie said, and was originally made into the Lucchese family, briefly joined the Bonannos, then ended up with the Genovese. He was close to bosses Vito Genovese, Tom Gagliano, and Tommy Lucchese; business partners with a Gambino member and close friends with Gambino leader Frank Scalise. He was part of a hit team working for Jersey boss Badami at one point and hid out in Buffalo territory on more than one occasion, once as a guest of Magaddino himself. There was a connection as well to Philly boss Joe Bruno Dovi.

What makes it interesting is the Detroit bit. He didn't feel familiar enough with Detroit to give an estimate when specifically asked, but apparently felt comfortable enough with the other cities. Pretty strange.

We are probably missing a good bit of info on Valachi's life and sources of knowledge. The Valachi Papers has a specific narrative, the Real Thing was a stream of consciousness rambling based on what he wanted to express (would love to read the whole thing and see what all might be in there, though), and the testimony was based around pretty general questions, not the deep mafia nerd abyss we all frequent. He very well could have had more interactions with and about different groups over 30+ years that we're not aware of.

I believe his estimate on his own family was 450. Fellow Genovese soldier Anthony Russo was recorded saying they had 300 members during the same era, which matches closer to more recent estimates. Personally I believe Valachi was wrong about many of his estimates but it's interesting to consider what he may have picked up over the years.

[Confederate]

How did Valachi briefly join the Bonnano's? Was he made into the Lucchese Family before the great Mafia War between Maranzano and Masseria? In what year was Valachi made and how old was he at that point? Was he placed into the Genovese Family after the war by Maranzano?

[B.]

How did Valachi briefly join the Bonnano's? Was he made into the Lucchese Family before the great Mafia War between Maranzano and Masseria? In what year was Valachi made and how old was he at that point? Was he placed into the Genovese Family after the war by Maranzano?

He was a Lucchese associate who was made into that family as part of a joint ceremony between the Luccheses and Bonannos. After the war, Maranzano announced that anyone who worked under him during the war could continue on under him, which Valachi volunteered to do, but Tommy Lucchese tried to intervene saying it was a mistake, though Valachi decided to stay with Maranzano. After Maranzano was killed, it was arranged for Valachi to transfer into the Genovese family.

[Confederate]

Before the Maranzano/Masseria war, were there 5 Families in New York? What were the names of the Families in New York before the big war? There was Maranzano, Masseria and who else? If there were more than these two families, who sided with whom?
What was the structure of the Mafia in New York BEFORE the War?

[Lupara]

How did Valachi briefly join the Bonnano's? Was he made into the Lucchese Family before the great Mafia War between Maranzano and Masseria? In what year was Valachi made and how old was he at that point? Was he placed into the Genovese Family after the war by Maranzano?

He was a Lucchese associate who was made into that family as part of a joint ceremony between the Luccheses and Bonannos. After the war, Maranzano announced that anyone who worked under him during the war could continue on under him, which Valachi volunteered to do, but Tommy Lucchese tried to intervene saying it was a mistake, though Valachi decided to stay with Maranzano. After Maranzano was killed, it was arranged for Valachi to transfer into the Genovese family.

Why did he actually want to be with Genovese instead of staying with the Bonannos?

[Lupara]

Before the Maranzano/Masseria war, were there 5 Families in New York? What were the names of the Families in New York before the big war? There was Maranzano, Masseria and who else? If there were more than these two families, who sided with whom?
What was the structure of the Mafia in New York BEFORE the War?

CC and Antiliar have written an extensive piece of research about this in one of the Informer magazines.

[Confederate]

Oh, Okay. Thank you.

[johnny_scootch]

Why did he actually want to be with Genovese instead of staying with the Bonannos?

Once Maranzano was killed Valachi lost his rabbi so to speak in that family. He should have went back to Gagliano but was convinced it would be smarter move to go with Genovese and Luciano whom Maranzano was plotting to kill when he himself was murdered.

[DPG]

Why did he actually want to be with Genovese instead of staying with the Bonannos?

Once Maranzano was killed Valachi lost his rabbi so to speak in that family. He should have went back to Gagliano but was convinced it would be smarter move to go with Genovese and Luciano whom Maranzano was plotting to kill when he himself was murdered.

I love in the movie when they ask him what family he went with after Maranzano got killed. "Haven't you been listening? I RAN!"

[Pogo The Clown]

Before the Maranzano/Masseria war, were there 5 Families in New York? What were the names of the Families in New York before the big war? There was Maranzano, Masseria and who else? If there were more than these two families, who sided with whom?
What was the structure of the Mafia in New York BEFORE the War?

There were families. The bosses were


Joe Masseria (Genovese)
Al Mineo (Gambino)
Cola Schiro (Bonanno)
Tom Reina (Lucchese)
Joe Profaci (Colombo)


As tension mounted Schiro fled NY in fear from Masseria at which point Maranzano took over. Masseria feared that Reina would side with Maranzano so he had him killed and installed Joe Pinzolo as the boss. The Reina loyalists headed by Tom Gagliano killed Pinzolo and took over the family, So when the fighting broke out it was Massseria-Mineo angaint Maranzano-Gagliano. Profaci was technically neutral but supported Maranzano-Gagliano. Outside of NY, the Chicago Outfit supported Masseria while Joe Aiello's family supported Maranzano (Aiello was of course killed). Buffalo and Philly also supported Maranzano. In Detroit the family was split with one faction supporting Masseria and the other Marazano (the marazano faction won).


Pogo