Giancana’s killer revealed?

[Antiliar]

Sam Giancana the nephew was out to make a bestseller and was pretty open about using fictional dialogue. Calabrese is more of a "just the facts ma'am" kind of guy from what I've seen. The bus tour isn't meant to just make money (that's obviously a big part of it), but it's his form of therapy. His dad was a vicious sociopath who treated him badly growing up and he's still dealing with it. He's also dealing with his own past in which he fully admits that he was a bad guy. So I don't think he's a scammer at all. It's my opinion and you're all free to disagree. So the bus tour isn't just him sharing his history and experiences, he's also sharing his feelings.

[Confederate]

Sam Giancana the nephew was out to make a bestseller and was pretty open about using fictional dialogue. Calabrese is more of a "just the facts ma'am" kind of guy from what I've seen. The bus tour isn't meant to just make money (that's obviously a big part of it), but it's his form of therapy. His dad was a vicious sociopath who treated him badly growing up and he's still dealing with it. He's also dealing with his own past in which he fully admits that he was a bad guy. So I don't think he's a scammer at all. It's my opinion and you're all free to disagree. So the bus tour isn't just him sharing his history and experiences, he's also sharing his feelings.

Instead of sharing his "feelings", he should be sharing at least some of the MONEY that he makes from his book and tours with the families of the victims, like the Ortiz family who are outraged at what he's doing. People like Frank Jr. and his father have multiple personalities and you never really know WHICH Frank Jr. is talking to you in his book or on the interviews he has done. It's within their D.N.A.
I would take whatever he says about the Giancana murder with a grain of salt because it sounds like a setup for his next book in order to make more money from it. That is my opinion.

[Antiliar]

I'm not debating what Calabrese should or shouldn't do, I'm only describing what he's doing. He did his time and he's allowed to make a living somehow, whether or not you or anyone else agrees with it.

Regarding Giancana, I think he's accurately representing what his father told him. Neither of them were there to witness the shooter, so we should be skeptical. He believes what his father told him and what he read in his father's notes, but only God knows if they're accurate. My position is that what he said is possibly true and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. As for using it in his next book, he probably will use it in his next book. Whatever insights into the history of the Outfit that he learned from his father and his uncle will be appreciated by researchers. But you have to consider that he didn't have to reveal what he learned on TV and could have saved it to increase book sales. That would have been a better strategy. By the way, these days non-fiction books rarely make the kind of profits that they used to make before the internet.

[Confederate]

I'm not debating what Calabrese should or shouldn't do, I'm only describing what he's doing. He did his time and he's allowed to make a living somehow, whether or not you or anyone else agrees with it.

Regarding Giancana, I think he's accurately representing what his father told him. Neither of them were there to witness the shooter, so we should be skeptical. He believes what his father told him and what he read in his father's notes, but only God knows if they're accurate. My position is that what he said is possibly true and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. As for using it in his next book, he probably will use it in his next book. Whatever insights into the history of the Outfit that he learned from his father and his uncle will be appreciated by researchers. But you have to consider that he didn't have to reveal what he learned on TV and could have saved it to increase book sales. That would have been a better strategy. By the way, these days non-fiction books rarely make the kind of profits that they used to make before the internet.

I never said to completely dismiss him. My point is that even if Frank Jr. is a completely honest and reformed man, (which I doubt) Just keep in mind that he stated two things that stuck out like a sore thumb in his interviews:
1). He and his father have multiple personalities.
2). His Father was always lying to him for deception purposes and was also always exaggerating things to impress him.
That's why I would take whatever he says about the Giancana murder including that it was solved in the Family Secrets Trial very lightly. But hey, everybody can believe whatever they want to make themselves happy. I am simply explaining my reasoning because I would LIKE to believe Frank Jr. but am extremely skeptical for the reasons he himself stated in those interviews.

[Villain]

2). His Father was always lying to him for deception purposes and was also always exaggerating things to impress him.

You guys are having one quite interesting convo and Im not taking sides or anything like that but this is one nice detail, which again proves that sometimes people forget what they previously said or stood for

[Snakes]

That would be a good point except Frank Sr mostly told the truth in those prison recordings with his son. Most of what he said in those tapes was backed up by witness testimony. He may have exaggerated his stature and importance but those aren't really very measurable on a true/false scale to begin with.

[Confederate]

That would be a good point except Frank Sr mostly told the truth in those prison recordings with his son. Most of what he said in those tapes was backed up by witness testimony. He may have exaggerated his stature and importance but those aren't really very measurable on a true/false scale to begin with.

The main witness testimony that backed up a lot of what Frank Sr. said on tape was from Nick Calabrese. There is no question that Frank Sr. was involved in murders. However, keep in mind that Frank Jr. started taping his Father in early 1999. Nick Calabrese started cooperating in early 2002 which was about 3 years later. In addition, Nick lied to the Feds about Marcello's involvement in the Spilotro Murders because Marcello was paying Nick's wife $4,000 a month. Later, Nick changed his story and included Marcello. Frank Sr. was NOT being taped at the same time that Nick Calabrese was giving his information to the Feds. Who's to say that the Feds didn't play all those tapes for Nick so he could just agree with all of it?
Aside from the murders that Frank Sr. talked about, some of the other things he mentioned that Nick corroborated didn't make sense and are not entirely believable. Stories like Tocco being made in 1983 and Mario Puzo talking about how a guy gets made in the Godfather Novel (which never happened) are a bunch of bullshit that the Feds wanted Nick to corroborate after they played the tapes to him. They wanted the Jury to know that Nick and Frank went through this secret initiation into an ongoing criminal enterprise so they could always have the R.I.C.O. act at their disposal. Bottom line, I don't automatically believe all of the Calabrese's stories and I don't believe everything Frank Jr. says now. I believe some of it but not all of it. That's why a very healthy dose of skepticism is needed every time Frank Jr. comes out with a "new" Story.

[Snakes]

I've repeatedly stated that Tocco being made in 1983 makes sense because he wasn't boss of the Heights at the time - Palermo was. As for the Puzo/Godfather making ceremony, Sr. probably just mixed his mafia pop culture up. It's certainly no reason to discredit the making ceremony.

Nick wasn't tripped up on any of the non-Frank Sr. related testimony that he gave (Infelise gaff the minor exception) so he gives me no reason to believe that he was lying or copying the things Frank Sr. mentioned on the tapes. Out of all the federal witnesses that have come out of LCN-related trials, Nick appears to be one of the more genuine and reliable ones.

They convicted Chicago guys with RICO long before the Family Secrets case, too. The Ferriola/Infelise crew was identified as part of the Outfit and convicted as such. Ditto the Carlisi crew and the Lenny Patrick crew. In none of those cases were making ceremonies the central feature.

[Confederate]

I've repeatedly stated that Tocco being made in 1983 makes sense because he wasn't boss of the Heights at the time - Palermo was. As for the Puzo/Godfather making ceremony, Sr. probably just mixed his mafia pop culture up. It's certainly no reason to discredit the making ceremony.

Nick wasn't tripped up on any of the non-Frank Sr. related testimony that he gave (Infelise gaff the minor exception) so he gives me no reason to believe that he was lying or copying the things Frank Sr. mentioned on the tapes. Out of all the federal witnesses that have come out of LCN-related trials, Nick appears to be one of the more genuine and reliable ones.

They convicted Chicago guys with RICO long before the Family Secrets case, too. The Ferriola/Infelise crew was identified as part of the Outfit and convicted as such. Ditto the Carlisi crew and the Lenny Patrick crew. In none of those cases were making ceremonies the central feature.

Tocco was made before 1983. Whether he was a big Territory Boss of all the Far South or a Crew Boss under Palermo, doesn't change that fact. I will reserve my opinion on his status in 1983 until a later date for the appropriate thread.

I thought you said Accardo shooting Giancana was a bunch of crock at the beginning of this thread? Change your mind? That is the subject of this thread and all my reasons stated are why I have my doubts about Frank Jr's story. I don't understand why you want to debate so hard the opposite statement you made earlier? However, everybody is entitled to change their mind. No point in talking about it anymore because neither of us will ever really know who killed Giancana. My bet is Blasi.

[Snakes]

I have no problem going back on my original statement because information came out which made me reconsider. At first, it sounded to me like a money grab for his tour but when Antilliar posted the link about Frank Jr. receiving the papers from his father I began to think differently. I still don't know exactly what to think but the papers Jr. received were notes from his father as well as official government documents, including FBI files. It would be very interesting to read those because they appeared to include much more information from the trial that didn't come out in testimony.

I know you want to save it for later but if you state something as a fact you normally need something to back it up, i.e. a good source. We already know being made was essentially a hierarchical thing for the Outfit Italians but non-Italians also (who weren't made) held positions of authority, sometimes over made members. Why is it so hard to believe that Tocco had a position of some authority before he was made? It wouldn't be inconsistent with what we already know about the Outfit's structure.

[Confederate]

Okay. That's fair enough about wanting to see more documents if possible. The part about Frank Jr. saying the Giancana case was resolved in the Family Secrets case is ridiculous. You see, it's all this little stuff like this that makes me not believe him. there are other things too concerning money that are way exaggerated, but maybe he just repeated the exaggerations of his Father. lol

Italians in high positions were generally always not only Outfit members but made members of the National La Cosa Nostra. Non Italians in high positions were members of the Outfit but not members of the National La Cosa Nostra.
I will check with Villain but I remember he and I discussing this in a PM and he had some information about Tocco being made before 1983.

Or, you'll have to wait until our book comes out to see our source. We're saving it for our book. That's my new answer to everything.

[Villain]

I have few questions for Jr....

Why didnt the caretaker say anything which would've implicate that he was lying or that he "missed" the whole Accardo thing?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... may%201975

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... may%201975

Also how come the whole Giancana case was suddenly solved while all of the family members and researchers didnt know on who the killer was for such a long period?!

And if everything was already solved, why didnt no one go to jail or was imprisoned for the murder of Sam?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 5&tab=page

[Frank]

I have few questions for Jr....

Why didnt the caretaker say anything which would've implicate that he was lying or that he "missed" the whole Accardo thing?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... may%201975

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... may%201975

Also how come the whole Giancana case was suddenly solved while all of the family members and researchers didnt know on who the killer was for such a long period?!

And if everything was already solved, why didnt no one go to jail or was imprisoned for the murder of Sam?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 5&tab=page

Probably everyone involved were dead. But the other questions definitely need to be asked. Why no public announcement by LE about such a high profile case??

[Snakes]

The feds typically don't just give out free information unless it makes them look good in the present.

[Frank]

I have few questions for Jr....

Why didnt the caretaker say anything which would've implicate that he was lying or that he "missed" the whole Accardo thing?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... may%201975

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... may%201975

Also how come the whole Giancana case was suddenly solved while all of the family members and researchers didnt know on who the killer was for such a long period?!

And if everything was already solved, why didnt no one go to jail or was imprisoned for the murder of Sam?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 5&tab=page

Ok I see what you mean, Calabrese Sr made the silencer for the gun according to the new info, making him involved and why no charges on him for being a part of the murder??