Role of a Soldier Today

[UTC]

Being perceived as being right on this is disproportionately important to you so have at it. You seem to be becoming one of those mafia fan bois you rail against.

I'm a fan of the facts. Not because I'm rooting for the LCN.

Joking

[UTC]

Uhhh...meth and marijuana to the worldwide extent they do it--which is what I said---including Scandinavia, U.K and Australia--dwarfs LCN's local prescription drugs and currently puny role in heroin. Come on, I don't believe you don't know that.

[Wiseguy]

Uhhh...meth and marijuana to the worldwide extent they do it--which is what I said---including Scandinavia, U.K and Australia--dwarfs LCN's local prescription drugs and currently puny role in heroin. Come on, I don't believe you don't know that.

If we're talking international scope for the sake of comparison, wouldn't it make sense to include the Italian syndicates? You can't include OMG chapters in other countries but only include the American LCN and call it apples to apples.

[UTC]

We were talking LCN versus biker gangs.

[Wiseguy]

We were talking LCN versus biker gangs.

Yes, but those chapters in other countries don't necessarily have more of a connection to those in the US than the Sicilian Cosa Nostra or Calabrian Ndrangheta do to the American LCN. You can't make am apples-to-oranges comparison in an attempt to make your point. If you want to make a comparison to the LCN in America alone, than it should be with domestic OMGs.

[UTC]

I'm not trying to "make a point". This isn't a debate to me and i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I go to forums to enjoy myself. I was comparing one group to another group. I think the fact that one is a worldwide organization ITSELF shows something. It's apples to oranges because one actually is bigger. If you think that's a dumb comparison that's fine with me.

[Confederate]

There is also a HUGE difference within the American LCN between the New York 5 Families and the other remaining 5 Families OUTSIDE of New York.
Philly, Chicago, New England, New Jersey & Detroit are much smaller than the New York 5 so the scope of criminal activity with these small Families concerning the drug traffic is basically a joke when you are talking about Drug Cartels versus them. lol

[Cacuzza]

The mafia is like any other organisation where people naturally wish to advance and climb the hierarchy. its seen as recognition of achievement and reward for service as well as respect among peers. Those that decline membership are still in the vast minority.

what are you basing this on, my friend?

It’s a speculative conclusion, but not one without base.
That the known cases of associates declining are few and far between. Of course there would be more that we don’t know, but the mob is still filling it’s ranks at whim it appears.
Additionally a soldier is a level above an associate and for the reasons I gave above coupled with that the position of soldier carries with it rights above that of an associate, all considered, I thinks it’s an easy conclusion to draw.

Is it true that if an associate is approached for membership and declines they are still respected but have to disassociate themselves? They are no longer allowed to associate as before and still hang around but have to leave but there is no prejudice or animosity. They are considered an outsider but with respect and are left alone and they can't come back. They had their chance. Is any of that true or sound familiar?

[Peppermint]

The mafia is like any other organisation where people naturally wish to advance and climb the hierarchy. its seen as recognition of achievement and reward for service as well as respect among peers. Those that decline membership are still in the vast minority.

what are you basing this on, my friend?

It’s a speculative conclusion, but not one without base.
That the known cases of associates declining are few and far between. Of course there would be more that we don’t know, but the mob is still filling it’s ranks at whim it appears.
Additionally a soldier is a level above an associate and for the reasons I gave above coupled with that the position of soldier carries with it rights above that of an associate, all considered, I thinks it’s an easy conclusion to draw.

Is it true that if an associate is approached for membership and declines they are still respected but have to disassociate themselves? They are no longer allowed to associate as before and still hang around but have to leave but there is no prejudice or animosity. They are considered an outsider but with respect and are left alone and they can't come back. They had their chance. Is any of that true or sound familiar?

Sorry to interject, but...

I don’t see why that wouldn’t be true. Especially if the person declines membership under good terms, but I don’t know. If I was a made guy, and my offer to an associate to become made themselves was declined I would be suspicious of why that is, and become worried they’re turning into a rat. I would find it odd, that after having spent all this time working for my family, as a loyal associate and being a dedicated earner, not want to become made I would imagine that would be ultimately their goal.

So my question is, what reason would there be for an associate to spend all this time working for a family, and decline the opportunity to become made? Seems counterproductive, and suspicious to me.

[gohnjotti]

The mafia is like any other organisation where people naturally wish to advance and climb the hierarchy. its seen as recognition of achievement and reward for service as well as respect among peers. Those that decline membership are still in the vast minority.

what are you basing this on, my friend?

It’s a speculative conclusion, but not one without base.
That the known cases of associates declining are few and far between. Of course there would be more that we don’t know, but the mob is still filling it’s ranks at whim it appears.
Additionally a soldier is a level above an associate and for the reasons I gave above coupled with that the position of soldier carries with it rights above that of an associate, all considered, I thinks it’s an easy conclusion to draw.

Is it true that if an associate is approached for membership and declines they are still respected but have to disassociate themselves? They are no longer allowed to associate as before and still hang around but have to leave but there is no prejudice or animosity. They are considered an outsider but with respect and are left alone and they can't come back. They had their chance. Is any of that true or sound familiar?

Sorry to interject, but...

I don’t see why that wouldn’t be true. Especially if the person declines membership under good terms, but I don’t know. If I was a made guy, and my offer to an associate to become made themselves was declined I would be suspicious of why that is, and become worried they’re turning into a rat. I would find it odd, that after having spent all this time working for my family, as a loyal associate and being a dedicated earner, not want to become made I would imagine that would be ultimately their goal.

So my question is, what reason would there be for an associate to spend all this time working for a family, and decline the opportunity to become made? Seems counterproductive, and suspicious to me.

https://nypost.com/2011/10/31/la-cosa-nostra/

This article helps explain some of the reasons why an associate might decline an induction.

Since I made this thread back in 2018, I've learned a lot more details about Guerra and Petillo's aborted inductions.

Unsurprisingly, the only examples I have of this are Colombo family-related. But, as that article said, both Joseph Petillo and Francis Guerra allegedly turned down membership proposals in 2010. Although the NY Post article doesn't go into detail, Petillo was a former associate of William Cutolo/Michael Spataro. He was a wealthy associate, primarily involved in loansharking with rumors that he was also involved in drugs, according to Peggy Cutolo. In 2010, eleven years after Cutolo's death left his crew in disarray, Petillo was proposed for membership by Andy Russo, the Colombo family's street boss, who was attempting to "re-energize" the crime family's dwindling numbers by bringing back wayward members and associates like Joe Petillo back into the fold. Petillo declined, however, because he feared it was a set-up. According to Liz Geddes in Andy Russo's detention hearing (or Petillo's detention hearing, I can't recall exactly which), Petillo and Russo were incarcerated together in the 2000s and had some sort of prison dispute. Given the Colombo family's well-documented history of double-crosses: Petillo was caught up in the fringes of the 1991-93 Colombo war, was around for the assassination and poaching of his captain William Cutolo and his crew, and witnessed firsthand the double-crossing and turmoil that occurred with Cutolo's crew afterwards. Petillo presumably thought the ceremony was a set-up to be whacked, and didn't attend. In reality, from what Geddes said, it appears Russo really was trying to induct Petillo, and Petillo later expressed on tape regret for not attending.

Guerra is a different story, because he has been a proposed member pretty much since 1993, alongside Big Anthony Russo, when he participated in the Joseph Scopo hit that concluded the war. He was first scheduled to be inducted in 2000, one of the youngest in a batch of patiently-waiting proposed associates, but was arrested on drug charges. When he was released from prison, he was proposed once again but was caught on tape wondering whether it would even be worth it. By this point, Guerra had already been mistakenly ID'ed as a Colombo soldier when he was Allie Persico's personal driver, and Guerra was/is incredibly close to the Persico brood (particularly Allie, Teddy Sr., and Skinny Teddy), as well as captains Big Anthony Russo and Reynold Maragni.
When Guerra was asked if he wanted to be inducted in the Feb. 2009 ceremony along with his friend Big Anthony Russo and others, Guerra "passed" on it. With some prodding by Anthony Russo, who had been promoted to acting captain just over a year after his induction, Guerra eventually agreed to be inducted in the next upcoming ceremony in Dec. 2010, and a list was passed around with Guerra's name on it. However, the ceremony was cancelled due to FBI heat.
In April 2011, a wired-up Reynold Maragni had a conversation with Guerra confirming that he had seen Guerra's name on a list, and discussed with Guerra the fact that he "had a birthday coming" and Guerra would now be "the same as your friends."

[Pogo The Clown]

Massino said he initially turned down being made because he felt he didn't need it because he was already direct with the Boss. He of course accepted soon after because Rastelli went to prison.


Pogo

[gohnjotti]

Massino said he initially turned down being made because he felt he didn't need it because he was already direct with the Boss. He of course accepted soon after because Rastelli went to prison.


Pogo

That pretty much mirrors Reynold Maragni’s thought process too, in that he testified he never put much stock into “being made” because he was direct with Colombo admin since the 1980s, only being made in 2008 due to Tommy Gioeli’s impending indictment.

[Cacuzza]

The mafia is like any other organisation where people naturally wish to advance and climb the hierarchy. its seen as recognition of achievement and reward for service as well as respect among peers. Those that decline membership are still in the vast minority.

what are you basing this on, my friend?

It’s a speculative conclusion, but not one without base.
That the known cases of associates declining are few and far between. Of course there would be more that we don’t know, but the mob is still filling it’s ranks at whim it appears.
Additionally a soldier is a level above an associate and for the reasons I gave above coupled with that the position of soldier carries with it rights above that of an associate, all considered, I thinks it’s an easy conclusion to draw.

Is it true that if an associate is approached for membership and declines they are still respected but have to disassociate themselves? They are no longer allowed to associate as before and still hang around but have to leave but there is no prejudice or animosity. They are considered an outsider but with respect and are left alone and they can't come back. They had their chance. Is any of that true or sound familiar?

Sorry to interject, but...

I don’t see why that wouldn’t be true. Especially if the person declines membership under good terms, but I don’t know. If I was a made guy, and my offer to an associate to become made themselves was declined I would be suspicious of why that is, and become worried they’re turning into a rat. I would find it odd, that after having spent all this time working for my family, as a loyal associate and being a dedicated earner, not want to become made I would imagine that would be ultimately their goal.

So my question is, what reason would there be for an associate to spend all this time working for a family, and decline the opportunity to become made? Seems counterproductive, and suspicious to me.

I didn't put the question into context.

The time frame is late 1950's to early 1970's. The place is New York City uptown. The people in question who are not members are a hand full of young Italian American guys who all know each other and grew up together in the same neighborhood in the Bronx. Because of where they lived and grew up they and there families were known to made members who grew up in the same neighborhood but have since moved away but comeback to Harlem everyday to conduct their business and still have family living in the old neighborhood who know the families of the your guys.

Some of the young guys seriously wanted to be recognized accepted and inducted someday. A few of the guys didn't really want it and are prepared to decline it if it is ever offered. In the meanwhile they keep hanging around together doing the things they are doing either individually or together for some of the made guys.

One of the made guys in particular almost considered these guys as his own little personal crew or gang. Or looked at them as a bunch of sons. They would do whatever he asked or told them to do. For them it was fun they actually enjoyed it and their tasks became a form of competition for them. A lot of the tasks in those days involved labor racketeering and union organizing related tasks, lots of personal violence and property damage not to mention doing some collection work as well as intimidation, whatever needed to be done.

If they were told to do something they would try to out do each other looking to see who would earn the recognition and praise of the made guy who now had a close relationship with them. They knew where he lived, been to his house a few times and knew his wife and kids.

One of the young guys who did all of these things with his friends from the same neighborhood really did not want this life as far as being inducted. It wasn't because he was a potential "rat." And it wasn't because he did not have "balls" because he already proved he did time and time again.

He did not want the commitment that automatically came with official membership. He always wanted to be able maintain that sense that he was "free" to an extent and could just walk away if he ever chose to, even if that meant in order to walk away clean he might have to "lam" it from the made guys and his life long friends without anyone knowing what his intentions were if he ever decided to do that and completely breaking all contact while moving to another state and living whatever kind of life he wanted to start for himself without be dictated to.

One day he was approached by the older made guy and told that he was going to be proposed for membership. He asked the made guy not to do that because he would decline it and did not want the made guy who he looked up to like a surrogate father to be embarrassed or exposed to being questioned as to his choice of proposal when the guy doesn't even want it. It would make it appear that the made guy did not know his guys well enough, even after years of observation, and feared they would question the made guys judgement and question if the proposed guy who declined the offer when it was expected he would accept it, in that case what else did they not know about him or what other tendencies did the potential proposed guy have that they were unaware of which again would reflect negatively on the older made guy as well.

When it became known that he did not want to be inducted and the reason why (did not want the life long commitment) he was shown more respect than before but was also informed that he had to go (not killed). But had to leave and not come around any more. He proved himself enough that they trusted he wouldn't go around talking. He got married moved away got a job became a father and lived a working class straight life. But he kept in touch with a few of his friends who knew where he was and what he was doing who also kept him updated as to what was going on over there.

One of the guys he kept in touch with who was still there and wanted to be inducted more than anything stayed there but was never made. He kept getting passed over year after year no matter how hard he tried. He ended up running a few Black Jack smut shops in Times Square back in the day for Joe Bikini as a civilian not a made man.

[Cacuzza]

For the sake of further context to the above story. The young guys were between the ages of 20 and 25 when they first started. The older made guys in question were between the age of 40 and 50 years. The guy who was allowed to go moved to a town called Long Branch, New Jersey. The other guy who stayed and ended up running a few smut shops married had children and moved to Fort Lee, New Jersey form where he commuted back and forth into the city. They kept in touch by phone and periodic visits in both directions to spend a day eating drinking and talking. When the guy who stayed ran the smut shops for Joe Bikini he was now in his early 40's. By that time the older made guys had died off from various natural causes, heart attack, cancer, etc. After Joe Bikini died the guy who ran some of the Black Jack stores stayed and ran them under whoever took over Joe Bikini's operations until Times Square was cleaned up and all the porn was shut down. Everyone in the story is dead today except the one who stayed his whereabouts are unknown although if he survived he would be at least 90 years old today. It is possible he is no longer living.

[Peppermint]

Thank you Cacuzza, your story really put it into perspective why someone would turn down the opportunity to be made. I guess the outcome of turning it down depends on the associate in question that turned it down.

I am sure there were associates, unlike those in your story, that rejected the offer to become made and were assassinated because of it. Then again, after having read your story, I realize that is actually kind of foolish. Because if they didn’t trust said associate to begin with, why even want to induct them? I guess they give them the benefit of the doubt if they refuse the offer, so I suppose it’s just me I am too paranoid to be that trusting.

Thanks again for clearing it all up, and great story very well written!