former LCN boss who "talked"

[JCB1977]

Was joe piazza the guy tied up in the sly fanner murders in Cleveland
Joe piazza aka. Dominic lonardo

I believe so

[JCB1977]

Thanks Chris.

In the available files, he just mentions that his uncle was a member and that he was dead. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but Lima began to cooperate in 1965, the same year his uncle died.(assuming limey's dates are correct).

From the best I can tell, he doesn't mention anything about his cousin or his own son who were allegedly members.(according to limey)

BTW, you cleared up why Lima went to SF, presumably to follow his uncle. I wonder if Tony Lima was marred to his wife/first cousin by the time he relocated or if that happened once he settled in SF.

His uncle Sebastiano? He was an earlier leader of some sort, capo or boss I don't know. His group, while connected to Pittsburgh and Johnstown they seemed to be based out of Marion, OH but perhaps I'm mistaken. It's still research in process but what I can say is he's not the only ORV Ital to go wagons east. San Francisco and Vallejo were linked to the ORV early on since the early '10's.

When the Limas moved to SF they went to Taraval St, above two miles east from the Pedone's on San Pablo Ave. But I've had no luck connecting them. The Limas seem to fall off my radar after they left. I don't know whether the move was OC-related or seeking economic opportunity.

It's the same Lima's

[Stroccos]

Was joe piazza the guy tied up in the sly fanner murders in Cleveland
Joe piazza aka. Dominic lonardo

I believe so

It sounds like it , so he is saying that piazza was killed

[JCB1977]

Thanks Chris.

In the available files, he just mentions that his uncle was a member and that he was dead. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but Lima began to cooperate in 1965, the same year his uncle died.(assuming limey's dates are correct).

From the best I can tell, he doesn't mention anything about his cousin or his own son who were allegedly members.(according to limey)

BTW, you cleared up why Lima went to SF, presumably to follow his uncle. I wonder if Tony Lima was marred to his wife/first cousin by the time he relocated or if that happened once he settled in SF.

His uncle Sebastiano? He was an earlier leader of some sort, capo or boss I don't know. His group, while connected to Pittsburgh and Johnstown they seemed to be based out of Marion, OH but perhaps I'm mistaken. It's still research in process but what I can say is he's not the only ORV Ital to go wagons east. San Francisco and Vallejo were linked to the ORV early on since the early '10's.

When the Limas moved to SF they went to Taraval St, above two miles east from the Pedone's on San Pablo Ave. But I've had no luck connecting them. The Limas seem to fall off my radar after they left. I don't know whether the move was OC-related or seeking economic opportunity.

I assume Salvatore Lima is the uncle based on Limey's charts. He died in 1965. No mention of Sebastiano Lima. Not sure his relationship to Tony Lima.

I was corresponding with a very knowledgeable poster who had a lot of great info on the Lima family. It was too late to use for my article but perhaps he will chime in here with his information. I think Tony Lima's informant file would be worth getting for a researcher interested in the early LCN days.


Thanks to all the folks who took the time to say they liked the article. It gives me a great deal of satisfaction to know that well-informed people found it enjoyable.

It opened my eyes to alot of new information. I never really followed Frisco, I have some early names and I think I started a thread on this but quite little. So thanks for the research, interesting read and adding to my base of knowledge. And your work all but confirmed a deeper link to Pittsburgh with the Limas which I was starting to call into question in my own musings.

In 1910, Sebastiano and Salvatore Lima, brothers, were charged with conspiracy heading a ring which ran into Bellafontaine, Cincinnati, Marion to Pittsburgh and Johnstown as the Boss and cashier. it sounds like Tony Lima is connecting the Society of the Banana to Pittsburgh. Which, going back to their bases and area of operations wasn't based in Pittsburgh but southern Ohio with links to Pittsburgh. Antiliar and I spoke about this and he suggested it was just an earlier faction dash crew of "Pittsburgh." I had reservations for several reasons, mainly how they acted as a group, but Tony Lima would know alot more than I would now wouldn't he?

Great read.

We should split that file we wanted a few years back

[B.]

A few things after re-reading it:

- The article claims the SF family was started in the early 1930s, but Gentile talks about visiting SF and briefly transferring there under a boss who is an "old man" circa early 1920s. He also says the Sciortinos, who would later be early SJ leaders, were SF members and D'Aquila loyalists who had moved to NY, which suggests the SJ family may not have existed at the time. Was the 1930s date given by Lima?

- Gentile also talks about Joe Piazza, who he says was a young man during the above events, obviously living in the SF area at the time. What year did the Lonardo "Joe Piazza" flee from Cleveland? Was it early 1920s?

- Any known relation between Frank Genovese and Bonanno relatives-by-marriage Greg and Joseph Genovese who lived in the Bay Area?

[Angelo Santino]

We should split that file we wanted a few years back

I just learned there's a book on them being released, reckon we'll save money by having a look see.

A few things after re-reading it:

- The article claims the SF family was started in the early 1930s, but Gentile talks about visiting SF and briefly transferring there under a boss who is an "old man" circa early 1920s. He also says the Sciortinos, who would later be early SJ leaders, were SF members and D'Aquila loyalists who had moved to NY, which suggests the SJ family may not have existed at the time. Was the 1930s date given by Lima?

It's one of the oldest groups in the union, mid to late 1870's after the cities of Boston and St Louis. Largely forgotten now alongside N'Orleans because they petered out earlier. But in terms of who this "old rappresentante" was, we have Lanza there at the time Gentile was said to have visited, but Lanza was born in 1872 so he would have been 49 in 1921 with Gentile being 13 years his junior. Life expectancy in 1920 was 58.8 years so maybe age 50 was considered "old" in 1921. And he also would have only have been boss for one year by the time Uncle Nick visited him, freshly expatriated from NYC. The alternative is Lanza was not boss yet and some "old rappresentante" escaped scrutiny.

Lastly,
1 my researches took me to San Francisco which, by the 1900's, seem to have connections to San Jose Italo colonies there. Regardless of whether or not a San Jo LCN group was made official in the 1940's, the potential was there - like in Rochester - at a much earlier point.
2 Nick Sylvester of the 1910 Morello-Lupo counterfeiting case, got released early by supplying Flynn with info and relocated to SF and I believe he became a private detective.

[Ed]

A few things after re-reading it:

- The article claims the SF family was started in the early 1930s, but Gentile talks about visiting SF and briefly transferring there under a boss who is an "old man" circa early 1920s. He also says the Sciortinos, who would later be early SJ leaders, were SF members and D'Aquila loyalists who had moved to NY, which suggests the SJ family may not have existed at the time. Was the 1930s date given by Lima?

- Gentile also talks about Joe Piazza, who he says was a young man during the above events, obviously living in the SF area at the time. What year did the Lonardo "Joe Piazza" flee from Cleveland? Was it early 1920s?

- Any known relation between Frank Genovese and Bonanno relatives-by-marriage Greg and Joseph Genovese who lived in the Bay Area?

Lima never gave that date. I probably should have used the word "formally" established in the mind of the FBI, or something like that. The FBI doesn't give any data before Francesco Lanza and 1930. Neither does the California state police report I have. They both just list the four bosses. Presumably, if Lima talked, he would have shared the names of early mafia bosses in SF but I guess it didn't fit the FBI narrative for some reason to include them.

I don't know Genovese relationship to the others but here is more information to help you track it down:

Frank Joseph Genovese
5-19-1904, born in California.
13648 Lake Road,
Hickman, California

[JCB1977]

We should split that file we wanted a few years back

I just learned there's a book on them being released, reckon we'll save money by having a look see.

A few things after re-reading it:

- The article claims the SF family was started in the early 1930s, but Gentile talks about visiting SF and briefly transferring there under a boss who is an "old man" circa early 1920s. He also says the Sciortinos, who would later be early SJ leaders, were SF members and D'Aquila loyalists who had moved to NY, which suggests the SJ family may not have existed at the time. Was the 1930s date given by Lima?

It's one of the oldest groups in the union, mid to late 1870's after the cities of Boston and St Louis. Largely forgotten now alongside N'Orleans because they petered out earlier. But in terms of who this "old rappresentante" was, we have Lanza there at the time Gentile was said to have visited, but Lanza was born in 1872 so he would have been 49 in 1921 with Gentile being 13 years his junior. Life expectancy in 1920 was 58.8 years so maybe age 50 was considered "old" in 1921. And he also would have only have been boss for one year by the time Uncle Nick visited him, freshly expatriated from NYC. The alternative is Lanza was not boss yet and some "old rappresentante" escaped scrutiny.

Lastly,
1 my researches took me to San Francisco which, by the 1900's, seem to have connections to San Jose Italo colonies there. Regardless of whether or not a San Jo LCN group was made official in the 1940's, the potential was there - like in Rochester - at a much earlier point.
2 Nick Sylvester of the 1910 Morello-Lupo counterfeiting case, got released early by supplying Flynn with info and relocated to SF and I believe he became a private detective.

Agreed on the book but I still think the file (400 pages) is worth having...I wonder if the book is reflective of the file?

[Angelo Santino]

A few things after re-reading it:

- The article claims the SF family was started in the early 1930s, but Gentile talks about visiting SF and briefly transferring there under a boss who is an "old man" circa early 1920s. He also says the Sciortinos, who would later be early SJ leaders, were SF members and D'Aquila loyalists who had moved to NY, which suggests the SJ family may not have existed at the time. Was the 1930s date given by Lima?

- Gentile also talks about Joe Piazza, who he says was a young man during the above events, obviously living in the SF area at the time. What year did the Lonardo "Joe Piazza" flee from Cleveland? Was it early 1920s?

- Any known relation between Frank Genovese and Bonanno relatives-by-marriage Greg and Joseph Genovese who lived in the Bay Area?

Lima never gave that date. I probably should have used the word "formally" established in the mind of the FBI, or something like that. The FBI doesn't give any data before Francesco Lanza and 1930. Neither does the California state police report I have. They both just list the four bosses. Presumably, if Lima talked, he would have shared the names of early mafia bosses in SF but I guess it didn't fit the FBI narrative for some reason to include them.

I don't know Genovese relationship to the others but here is more information to help you track it down:

Frank Joseph Genovese
5-19-1904, born in California.
13648 Lake Road,
Hickman, California

Starting in 1931 was not uncommon with the FBI. Especially with Joe Valachi's riveting story of Lucky Luciano's Cosa Nostra national crime syndicate. It's still done today and it's lazy. But you do have some people who fervently believe it. There's a subset of followers who don't believe the LCN didn't appear in NO until the 1940's despite the fact it's America's first crime family. With respects to the FBI, they presented a unified version to the public and stuck to their story and given they weren't researchers, probably were more focused on current targets rather than what their ancestors were doing in the 1910's.

Often debriefings of mafia members aren't done with the focus of understanding the family history but more on its current status: members, legitimate business infiltration and criminal activity. They were light years ahead of the interrogating agents of the 1910's, who had no understanding of the mafia nor cared to inquire further for info when presented, it was all straightforward who is committing what crime? Said so and so is a member of what gang, that's nice, so what type of coins does this guy deal in?

As for the members themselves, after a lifetime of lying and holding back info except for relative details, they answer questions oddly. Lima could have been asked who he worked for when he went to SF and he could say "the first boss I worked for was Lanza" and give no elaboration on its history. Other times it could make no sense.

We work with what we have.

[Stroccos]

A few things after re-reading it:



- Gentile also talks about Joe Piazza, who he says was a young man during the above events, obviously living in the SF area at the time. What year did the Lonardo "Joe Piazza" flee from Cleveland? Was it early 1920s?

Off the top of my head I think The shooting was in 1919 , so yeah early 20’s , if I am not mistaken there are some marry ferrel reports of a former consigliere moving from Cleveland to San Fran could establish some connection as to why he went to sams Fran . Again we don’t know if the reports on marry Ferrell are true , but piazza beat extradition to Ohio and at some point was reported missing assumed whacked

[Pogo The Clown]

We should split that file we wanted a few years back
It's one of the oldest groups in the union, mid to late 1870's after the cities of Boston and St Louis. Largely forgotten now alongside N'Orleans because they petered out earlier. But in terms of who this "old rappresentante" was, we have Lanza there at the time Gentile was said to have visited, but Lanza was born in 1872 so he would have been 49 in 1921 with Gentile being 13 years his junior. Life expectancy in 1920 was 58.8 years so maybe age 50 was considered "old" in 1921. And he also would have only have been boss for one year by the time Uncle Nick visited him, freshly expatriated from NYC. The alternative is Lanza was not boss yet and some "old rappresentante" escaped scrutiny.

Lastly,
1 my researches took me to San Francisco which, by the 1900's, seem to have connections to San Jose Italo colonies there. Regardless of whether or not a San Jo LCN group was made official in the 1940's, the potential was there - like in Rochester - at a much earlier point.
2 Nick Sylvester of the 1910 Morello-Lupo counterfeiting case, got released early by supplying Flynn with info and relocated to SF and I believe he became a private detective.

What was their first racket, packing fudge?


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

What was their first racket, packing fudge?


Pogo

You and those fuckin Soprano quotes, lol. You almost caught another one of my long-winded diatribes about the mob being a working class organization before I remembered the reference and we're discussing Frisco.

Extorsion, robbery, counterfeiting, murder, insurance fraud, kidnapping for ransom are the standard for 1900-1910 for what members dabbled in. I'll say dabbled because they worked legitimate jobs. Not as fronts but as a way of making ends meet. This was before bootlegging and gambling appeared onto the scene so everyone was scraping. Most of them came from agricultural backgrounds so the elite of this "criminal fraternity" were semi-legitimate business owners with influence in their respective industries be it ice, wines or produce stores. I don't think any one of them envisioned a middle-class lifestyle derived solely from criminal activity anymore than people in the 1980's imagining working from home via the internet. We have the fortune of hindsight.

[Villain]

^^^ This was mainly for the Sicilians or Italians, since by the late 1890's and early 1900's other ethnic groups were already in the big rackets such as gambling and prostitution and they mixed their legal businesses with illegal activities. I mentioned the Sicilians because even in those days there were few Italians who were connected or brought up by these other ethnic groups or criminals such as John Gazzola and Jim Colosimo.

[JCB1977]

We should split that file we wanted a few years back
It's one of the oldest groups in the union, mid to late 1870's after the cities of Boston and St Louis. Largely forgotten now alongside N'Orleans because they petered out earlier. But in terms of who this "old rappresentante" was, we have Lanza there at the time Gentile was said to have visited, but Lanza was born in 1872 so he would have been 49 in 1921 with Gentile being 13 years his junior. Life expectancy in 1920 was 58.8 years so maybe age 50 was considered "old" in 1921. And he also would have only have been boss for one year by the time Uncle Nick visited him, freshly expatriated from NYC. The alternative is Lanza was not boss yet and some "old rappresentante" escaped scrutiny.

Lastly,
1 my researches took me to San Francisco which, by the 1900's, seem to have connections to San Jose Italo colonies there. Regardless of whether or not a San Jo LCN group was made official in the 1940's, the potential was there - like in Rochester - at a much earlier point.
2 Nick Sylvester of the 1910 Morello-Lupo counterfeiting case, got released early by supplying Flynn with info and relocated to SF and I believe he became a private detective.

What was their first racket, packing fudge?


Pogo

[JCB1977]

Fell in love with the early stuff about 3 years back primarily because of my own genealogy project, it’s the most interesting history because we are examining the roots of OC in this country. Fascinating stuff, keep it coming. Looking forward to that Black Hand Book about the Lima brothers in Marion, OH regarding that multi state case. That was a pretty fascinating story.