Businness or blood/George from Canada

[Lupara]

Awesome post by B., Laurentian and Antimafia.

[Lupara]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

There's no such thing as a Rizzuto crime family. That shit was invented by the authors of the Sixth Family. There was a Rizzuto blood family (Rizzuto-Manno-Renda-Cammalleri) and an organization but there's no evidence that they were a recognised autonomous family similar to those in the US or Ontario, certainly not during Sciascia's time. Perhaps today, considering all the circumstances, they may be regarded as an independent group but even that is up for debate still.

You still believe them to be a branch of the Bonanno Family?

Hard to answer given the lack of information. Montreal seems quite fractured right now with several break-away groups and affiliations in control of their own territories. However, recent evidence indicates that there are still people who are on record with or even inducted as members of the Bonannos operating there. But that is not enough to indicate the presence of a full fledged Bonanno crew. Reports of guys traveling back and forth between Montreal and New York on a regular basis would always be a good indicator, but as of now there are no such reports.

It seems to me that when Rizzuto returned to Canada in 2012 it was agreed upon during a meeting in Toronto with reportedly representatives from New York present that he was given carte blanche to take out his opponents and restore order so business could continue. This could have given him the opportunity to be in charge of his own group. The fact that he could hit Joe Di Maulo, a longtime made member of the Montreal decina, without any resistance supports this hypothesis of an agreement that was made.

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

Glad I posed a question! Thanks for all of your hard work
and information: Lupara; Laurentian; B.; Antimafia and everyone else.

[Slumpy]

The frustrating thing about this topic is that its endlessly fascinating but there are just too many pieces of the puzzle missing to complete the picture. I still don't really know what to believe about the Rizzuto/Sciascia power dynamic, although I'm convinced it's even less cut and dry than I thought it was coming into this thread.

[Lupara]

The frustrating thing about this topic is that its endlessly fascinating but there are just too many pieces of the puzzle missing to complete the picture. I still don't really know what to believe about the Rizzuto/Sciascia power dynamic, although I'm convinced it's even less cut and dry than I thought it was coming into this thread.

The Rizzuto/Sciascia power dynamic is really simple in layman Cosa Nostra terms: the Rizzutos were Bonanno soldiers and Sciascia was their capo who represented them. Like I said earlier, there's no need to make this situation more complicated than as it's already been presented as an established fact.

[Slumpy]

On paper its simple, the reality of it was more complex.

[Lupara]

On paper its simple, the reality of it was more complex.

What reality is that? It is all speculation. Reality = fact. And the facts we have are those on paper.

[yatescj7781]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

There's no such thing as a Rizzuto crime family. That shit was invented by the authors of the Sixth Family. There was a Rizzuto blood family (Rizzuto-Manno-Renda-Cammalleri) and an organization but there's no evidence that they were a recognised autonomous family similar to those in the US or Ontario, certainly not during Sciascia's time. Perhaps today, considering all the circumstances, they may be regarded as an independent group but even that is up for debate still.

You still believe them to be a branch of the Bonanno Family?

Hard to answer given the lack of information. Montreal seems quite fractured right now with several break-away groups and affiliations in control of their own territories. However, recent evidence indicates that there are still people who are on record with or even inducted as members of the Bonannos operating there. But that is not enough to indicate the presence of a full fledged Bonanno crew. Reports of guys traveling back and forth between Montreal and New York on a regular basis would always be a good indicator, but as of now there are no such reports.

It seems to me that when Rizzuto returned to Canada in 2012 it was agreed upon during a meeting in Toronto with reportedly representatives from New York present that he was given carte blanche to take out his opponents and restore order so business could continue. This could have given him the opportunity to be in charge of his own group. The fact that he could hit Joe Di Maulo, a longtime made member of the Montreal decina, without any resistance supports this hypothesis of an agreement that was made.

Fair enough. That being said, did Vito take orders from the Bonanno family from 99 onwards? Or did he operate the Montreal crew to his own wishes?

[Lupara]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

There's no such thing as a Rizzuto crime family. That shit was invented by the authors of the Sixth Family. There was a Rizzuto blood family (Rizzuto-Manno-Renda-Cammalleri) and an organization but there's no evidence that they were a recognised autonomous family similar to those in the US or Ontario, certainly not during Sciascia's time. Perhaps today, considering all the circumstances, they may be regarded as an independent group but even that is up for debate still.

You still believe them to be a branch of the Bonanno Family?

Hard to answer given the lack of information. Montreal seems quite fractured right now with several break-away groups and affiliations in control of their own territories. However, recent evidence indicates that there are still people who are on record with or even inducted as members of the Bonannos operating there. But that is not enough to indicate the presence of a full fledged Bonanno crew. Reports of guys traveling back and forth between Montreal and New York on a regular basis would always be a good indicator, but as of now there are no such reports.

It seems to me that when Rizzuto returned to Canada in 2012 it was agreed upon during a meeting in Toronto with reportedly representatives from New York present that he was given carte blanche to take out his opponents and restore order so business could continue. This could have given him the opportunity to be in charge of his own group. The fact that he could hit Joe Di Maulo, a longtime made member of the Montreal decina, without any resistance supports this hypothesis of an agreement that was made.

Fair enough. That being said, did Vito take orders from the Bonanno family from 99 onwards? Or did he operate the Montreal crew to his own wishes?

It seems more like a lack of orders that were given rather than him not taking orders. Massino evidently didn't show much of an interest in Montreal when it took him 2 years after the Sciascia hit to send an envoy to acquaint themselves. This seems to have attributed to Montreal being Vito's playground. Even though I don't believe they ever officially broke off from the Bonannos by the mid 2000s they were seemingly functioning as their own little family until Montagna set foot over there and tried, but failed, to put things in order again.

[yatescj7781]

I've always wondered about that. From 99 to the meeting in MTL. Did the crew send tribute to Massino each month? What kept Massino from waiting almost 2 years to send an envoy?

[Lupara]

I've always wondered about that. From 99 to the meeting in MTL. Did the crew send tribute to Massino each month? What kept Massino from waiting almost 2 years to send an envoy?

Perhaps let the Sciascia murder cool down for a while and/or a lack of interest. What had Montreal to offer to NY at that point? Perhaps a little bit of xtc and weed coming in from Europe, but I think the Bonannos learned from the pizza connection trial and were keeping a low profile when it came to drugs.

That so called anual tribute wasn't of much significance either.

[Slumpy]

On paper its simple, the reality of it was more complex.

What reality is that? It is all speculation. Reality = fact. And the facts we have are those on paper.

Fair enough. You're right, it's all speculative.