Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Discuss all mafia families in the U.S., Canada, Italy, and everywhere else in the world.

Moderator: Capos

User avatar
Angelo Santino
Filthy Few
Posts: 6564
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:15 am

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Angelo Santino »

B. wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:13 am
Chris Christie wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:24 am It would be interesting to compile a list of crazy or odd things that informants have claimed. Little quirks such as Cafaro using 'amico nostra' claiming it has its origins in Spain, to the Bonanno informant who thought Cosa Nostra was Italian for "Friends", stuff like that. It's a reminder that these guys were criminals first, opportunists second and history would fall somewhere in the back of their top 20. And they have different levels of interest. Seems DiLeonardo is interested in the background, you can tell he's read up on it. Whereas other informants are just "this is what I seen" and they really don't see any reason to dive any deeper than that.

The origins of the Alien Conspiracy Theory do have some credences. The Mafia was a foreign entity that, while not set out to oppose the US government, were inclined to ignore it. The connections between Palermo and New York City, especially before immigration reform in the 1930s, was entrenched. New York City had a direct conduit to sought after Italian goods: wine and citrus was a thriving industry which supported merchants, salesmen, wine couriers, distributors. Most of your Palermo Mafiosi (Gambinos) traditionally been store owners linked to wine and citrus. The Palermo Mafia of this era cannot be understand without taking this into consideration. And given their idea of legality and business ethics, had RICO or some similar law been around during those days, there'd be a international criminal racketeering case revolving lemons and wine. Arguably this paved the way for many Gambino members to became community businessmen which only further added to their influence in NY. And maybe even played a role in why a second Palermitan Family was formed in NYC, but again that's from me and put that under a fat maybe as I can furnish no evidence at this point.

But on the flipside, by 1910 you have American born Italo youth starting to hang around these guy's stores and saloons and eventually they would find their places in the organization in the decades to come. Lacking those international connections, crime became localized or at least nationalized. I always considered Anastasia, while Italo-born, to be more of an American story, similar to Luciano et al his underworld origins began in NY and not Italy.
100% man.

I do have questions about some of the early back-and-forth. Like Morello, Lupo, etc. going back to Sicily in the early 1920s to try and have their death sentences removed. You could interpret that to mean there was some authority (be it an individual or group) who could influence decisions back in the US, but it's more likely they were reaching out to allies who could advocate for them politically, like we've heard about in other early families in the US, where a boss in one city might pass a death sentence on a member, only for a member from another city to reach out and ask for clemency. I imagine that's what was going on with Morello, etc. rather than reaching out to some kind of international powerhouse who could influence decisions on both sides of the water.

Like you said, though, where there is smoke there's at least some fire. The Sicilian and American mafia was the same organization at that point and they didn't make any distinction. Bosses in Sicily did have more influence in the US in early days, but it probably wasn't much different from a boss in one US city having influence on activities in another city... they could write their letters, recommend members, ask/give favors, use their political influence, etc. but they couldn't make a decision unless they were the boss of bosses like Morello or D'Aquila, and even then, they seem to have done that in an underhanded way (think of D'Aquila and Masseria's spies and shadowy manipulation of other cities).

Something that got me thinking... Jimmy Fratianno says in his book that Jack Dragna was made around 1914, which is when Dragna came back from Sicily after spending years there. If Fratianno's info is correct, either Dragna was made by the Morello family after he returned, or he was made in Sicily before he left. I've wondered if some of these guys who came to the US and went back to Sicily were made back there before they came to the US. Since we're sort of talking about myths here, there are similar stories about Carlo Gambino and others being made and "sent" to the US. DiLeonardo even said in one interview that his great-grandfather and grandfather were sent to the US by Cascioferro. It's probably, as you said, a little bit of one, another bit of the other, but definitely not a widespread alien conspiracy.
I do as well. Unfortunately all we have is a summary that passed multiple mouths before making its way into a file. We don't know who they met or what was said only that they went to Palermo and were rebuffed. Over what we don't know. To take the death sentence off, to remove D'Aquila as BOB, to get liquor imported as ceremonial wine? Going back to the Palermo Mafia and the citrus trade and the New York Mafia and all these Palermitan wine and produce linked mafiosi, there's a strong connection economically and culturally. Mineo's bro in law was a boss in Palermo and during the Palermo Mafia War, D'Aquila sent a large amount of money. These worlds were linked and it makes sense that if someone was trying to neutralize D'Aquila or one of his edicts, Palermo would be the place to attempt it.

In terms of membership, I'm of the opinion that a majority of the names we have on record were made here. I can conjure up a list of about a dozen names who were confirmed members in Sicily and America. But take a Family like the Bonannos and their heavy Cast element, certainly not everyone of them were members in Castellammare, which has, to my knowledge, been a very small albeit influential group. This goes back to a time when the Mafia was less capitalistic, it was not in their DNA for a Family to go on an initiation spree and make 30 new members, there was an equilibrium and some of these towns just are not very big. Castellammare is a small city but urban, it's a place for French and American vacations but it's not a major commerce area like Palermo. 20 members would be adequate, 30 enough, anything beyond 40 would just be redundant. And similar to American LCN Families like CL, Pittsburgh, arguably Chicago: membership was kept small. Contrary to "Ceasar's Legions" that gets thrown around, it was originally intended to be an exclusive club organized locally with elected offices and part of an extended fraternity.

I can't comment on the DiLeonardo thing, that's new to me. Cascioferro's job must have been to travel around Sicily as a Mafia marketing agent for America. Ok, I'm a funky I'll go along: if this is the case, what would Cascioferro's angle be? He's not receiving money from these individuals in the trickle-up sense, not planting any flags, so the only thing I could gather is having contacts in let's say people he sent to NY, Chicago and Texas, which is pretty much what the mafia is all about. Let's say in Italy he became acquainted with lithographers and engravers and he wanted to sell fabricated Irving National Bank $2 notes at 40 cents on the dollar he'd have a distribution chain in America. I could see it being something like that rather than a chess board with strategically placed pawns working towards his takeover through puppet BOB Maranzano.
User avatar
jimmyb
Straightened out
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:43 pm

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by jimmyb »

Antiliar wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:08 pm I've read Gary Potter, and he seems to be an extremist on the other side. While the Alien Conspiracy Theory (ACT) as originally formulated by the Bureau of Narcotics has been discredited, the updated version that built on Nicola Gentile and Joseph Valachi (and later by Buscetta, Bonanno, etc., etc.) has proven true. I also don't think the FBI inflated anything about Galante, but reflected its understanding according to informants. Vincent Teresa reported that he was a scary and powerful mobster who was destined to take over the Bonanno Family when he got out, and that's exactly what he did. According to Phil Rastelli and the Commission, Galante was not the actual boss, but to many capos and soldiers within the Bonanno Family he was. So Potter is making straw man claims against the FBI, perhaps to support him discredited extreme response to the original version of the ACT.

Regarding the Lansky book, it's a reprint of the 1991 book by Robert Lacey. Yes, I recommend it.
Here are the problems with the Alien Conspiracy Theory:

1) "the Mafia is like a corporation." This is repeated in a number of documentaries. While we know there is an hierarchical structure to each borgata, each soldato and captain is largely free to earn as they wish, as long as they 'kick up.'

2) OC and the Mafia are synonymous. The old "to know the mafia is to know organized crime argument." This overlooks other ethnic groups involved in organized criminal activities. More importantly, the argument suggests organized crime itself was imported from Sicily---see below.

3) The Alien Contamination argument. This is the idea that we lived in a pristine, democratic system free from corruption and vice, that is until Italian organized criminals immigrated to the US. This is such a joke I won't even bother commenting.

I agree, however, that some critics are too extreme in the other direction. So if we're specifically talking about "Cosa Nostra," then yes this is a Sicilian Criminal Society with origins in Italy. And each family shares a similar hierarchical structure, and they communicate with other cosche etc.

After looking over Potter's text, yeah I have to say his skepticism comes off rather flippant to me. He thinks government documents are rubbish and has even less regard for the testimonials of pentiti. I agree with Rick on this---that's pretty extreme.

I do, however, share some of his skepticism about Valachi. You guys are more read up on the Valachi case study than I am, but it seems he was coached by the feds---at least to some extent.
User avatar
Antiliar
Full Patched
Posts: 4388
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Antiliar »

Jimmy,

We agree that the original ACE has severe issues and that Potter threw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't think anyone advocates the original version of the ACE anymore since it's just silly.

Regarding Valachi, I would say he was and was not coached, depending on what one means by coaching. I know that sounds Clintonian, but there's coaching conduct, coaching behavior before a televised Senate hearing, and coached on testimony. I do believe he was coached on how to comport himself, as any attorney would do before court, but I don't think his testimony was coached. There are several reasons for this: his Senate testimony is consistent with his memoirs; he led the FBI to change the designation from Causa Nostra to Cosa Nostra. Prior to Valachi, when agents overheard mobsters talking with New York accents it sounded like "causa nostra," which they interpreted to mean "our cause." Then Valachi corrected them and said it was "our thing." So in a sense, Valachi coached the FBI. Finally, during his testimony he occasionally had memory lapses. If he was coached on what to say this is unlikely to have happened. For example, when he tried to recall the surname of Don Steve of Newark, he said it was something like Bonanno. Later during the hearing another person reported that it was Badami. It wasn't his only lapse, but considering that he wasn't a historian and going over a period of forty or so years, I think he did pretty well. It's too bad a historian with knowledge of the history of the Cosa Nostra didn't interview him.
B.
Men Of Mayhem
Posts: 10694
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by B. »

Going back to the original post, here is a MAJOR one that plays into what Jimmy said about the mafia not necessarily being synonymous with OC.

Some people believe that if a mafia family is not actively committing crimes, running illegal operations, etc. they are defunct. It's been a major source of arguments over the years and I used to accept that way of thinking when I first got into this shit because most mainstream info about the mafia is based on it.

However, that is not how the mafia has traditionally worked. The mafia is designed to give advantage to its members and other people in its network and that advantage can and does mean anything, and it can also change with time. C.Christie and I have had many conversations lately about the early 1900s/1910s, a period I know much less about, and one thing that stands out to me from what he's said is that LE only really cared about the mafia in context w/ counterfeiting during that period. If the internet was around back then, I believe some otherwise intelligent, well-meaning people on here would try to tell us that the mafia was entirely based around counterfeiting and if they were no longer involved in counterfeiting, the mafia no longer existed. That sounds ridiculous to us knowing what we know now, but I believe some people use the same logic when talking about modern families.

Also while it's not a myth that the the feds have better and better surveillance / investigative technology with time, most indictments are still the result of the same old pitfalls. Guys talking on phones, oversharing info with informants (or potential informants) they have no business letting into their inner circle, and ignoring basic security procedures. What technology has done more than anything is make the mafia's mistakes hurt more, but they still have to make those same old mistakes in the first place. It's not like there's some magic window the feds can look through and see every crime being committed by a given family at any given time -- these guys have to first stand by that window for that to happen.
Villain
Filthy Few
Posts: 5890
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:17 am

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Villain »

This reminds me of one example from the 60s regarding the so-called Dutch "Mafia" in Chicago and the scavenger business. They were no Mafia at all, but they started as semi-legit company until they inflitrated the needed institutions and took over all the stops around the city and then went completely legit, and kept it that way. Obviously they continued to protect only their own, which is the whole point of the clique, and they were immune from all gov investigations, even though there were still some suspicious deals and contracts going on, and they even managed to defend themselves from one serious punch which came directly from the Outfit.

I think that today's old Chicago mob somehow copied that same style, even though they are still involved in street crimes. After all they are the Outfit lol
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
User avatar
Angelo Santino
Filthy Few
Posts: 6564
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:15 am

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Angelo Santino »

Back then criminality was still strongly influenced by Cesar Lombrosos's theory that crime is committed by the humans not fully evolved and hence exhibited apelike features. They actually had criminals brought forward and asked to stand naked and Lombrosos would point out physical attributes that suggest criminality. This was mid 1800's.

1900's was really not much of an improvement. Then the concept of "Organized Crime" was debated as anything having more than one participant and/or the planning in advance of crime. Criminal gangs were even less understood, the concept of a vast criminal organization and expecting people to understand it would like explaining to someone bitcoin. And law enforcement was not equipped to deal with an entity like the Mafia, the agencies that did, like the SS or FBN, also weren't designed to target groups of people in a RICO but as individual and specific crimes.

The so-called Dutch Mafia's operandi is how the Mafia was originally supposed to have been and was. Over time, gradually, especially during the Prohibition, they grew to such a size and took in people beyond their hometown or western Sicily and that had lasting ramifications: how a 20 member group conducts itself vs a 100 member group. But the alta level of semi-legitimacy has never left, even though the mafia has long made room for the dapper street racketeer. It goes into what you are saying about its diversification.
Villain
Filthy Few
Posts: 5890
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:17 am

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Villain »

Chris Christie wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:42 am The so-called Dutch Mafia's operandi is how the Mafia was originally supposed to have been and was. Over time, gradually, especially during the Prohibition, they grew to such a size and took in people beyond their hometown or western Sicily and that had lasting ramifications: how a 20 member group conducts itself vs a 100 member group. But the alta level of semi-legitimacy has never left, even though the mafia has long made room for the dapper street racketeer. It goes into what you are saying about its diversification.
Completely agreed. Bravo
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
UTC
Sergeant Of Arms
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by UTC »

"crime is committed by the humans not fully evolved and hence exhibited apelike features."

an argument could be made...
User avatar
Pogo The Clown
Men Of Mayhem
Posts: 14219
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:02 am

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Pogo The Clown »

UTC wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:53 pm "crime is committed by the humans not fully evolved and hence exhibited apelike features."

an argument could be made...

The same thought crossed my mind when I read that. :mrgreen:


Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
User avatar
aleksandrored
Full Patched
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:24 pm

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by aleksandrored »

So from what I understood was Salvatore Maranzano who created the 5 families, so Lucky Luciano created only the commission?
User avatar
Antiliar
Full Patched
Posts: 4388
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Antiliar »

Maranzano didn't create the 5 Families and Luciano wasn't the only one who created the Commission (which was based on earlier commissions), those are two dispelled myths.
User avatar
aleksandrored
Full Patched
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:24 pm

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by aleksandrored »

so I understood that it was nothing kkkkkk, so the Genovese family for example was created by giuseppe morello?
If Luciano did not create the commission, then what did he do?
User avatar
Antiliar
Full Patched
Posts: 4388
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Antiliar »

Both the Genovese and the Lucchese Families came out of the Morello Family.

Luciano did create the Commission, along with Joe Bonanno, Vincent Mangano, Joe Profaci and Tom Gagliano.
User avatar
Confederate
Full Patched
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:39 am
Location: Pensacola Beach & Jacksonville, FL

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Confederate »

UTC wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:53 pm "crime is committed by the humans not fully evolved and hence exhibited apelike features."

an argument could be made...
No truer words were spoke. :mrgreen:
" Everything Woke turns to shit".
User avatar
Confederate
Full Patched
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:39 am
Location: Pensacola Beach & Jacksonville, FL

Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

Post by Confederate »

Antiliar wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:33 pm Maranzano didn't create the 5 Families and Luciano wasn't the only one who created the Commission (which was based on earlier commissions), those are two dispelled myths.
However, Maranzano did create the STRUCTURE of each Family because he patterned it after his idol Julius Caeser and the Roman Empire.
" Everything Woke turns to shit".
Post Reply