Chicago Outfit Lineage Chart 1928-2017

[Angelo Santino]

If I may be totally honest: I think the problem is people are trying to fit The Outfit's admin into one continuous unchanging grand design. Over the years on here, since 2002, I've heard it all: Chicago Consigliere, Front Boss, Under; panels; captains with 10 lieutenants and 10 soldiers under each lieutenant. Territory from Denver to the Caribbean. All under the guise of it being some grand super conspiracy that makes the Outfit monolithic. Remember when Lombardo went MIA and all these online Chicago assholes were all claiming he's here or there and that "the feds will never catch Joey."

This is not to suggest that I know more than you fine gentleman or that I'm privy to things you are not. My approach is from a historical perspective and Sicilian and mainland delinquents just operated differently just like Americans in NYC and Missouri are different. I think with less of a Sicilian influence post 1931, it provided leeway for whoever was in charge to arrange things as they wanted. Of course they would have to adhere to the national structure by having rank equivalents but as we've seen, there's always been 2-3 guys around the top that we can't place into ranks so we give them our own made up names: Top Boss, CEO, etc.

I'll make whatever you guys decide but it'll be obsolete in 10 years, just like the chart I made with Scott Burnstein back in '11 or '12 is today:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/maf ... 0530021806

[Confederate]

If I may be totally honest: I think the problem is people are trying to fit The Outfit's admin into one continuous unchanging grand design. Over the years on here, since 2002, I've heard it all: Chicago Consigliere, Front Boss, Under; panels; captains with 10 lieutenants and 10 soldiers under each lieutenant. Territory from Denver to the Caribbean. All under the guise of it being some grand super conspiracy that makes the Outfit monolithic. Remember when Lombardo went MIA and all these online Chicago assholes were all claiming he's here or there and that "the feds will never catch Joey."

This is not to suggest that I know more than you fine gentleman or that I'm privy to things you are not. My approach is from a historical perspective and Sicilian and mainland delinquents just operated differently just like Americans in NYC and Missouri are different. I think with less of a Sicilian influence post 1931, it provided leeway for whoever was in charge to arrange things as they wanted. Of course they would have to adhere to the national structure by having rank equivalents but as we've seen, there's always been 2-3 guys around the top that we can't place into ranks so we give them our own made up names: Top Boss, CEO, etc.

I'll make whatever you guys decide but it'll be obsolete in 10 years, just like the chart I made with Scott Burnstein back in '11 or '12 is today:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/maf ... 0530021806

Completely agree. Good Summary.

[Frank]

Me putting Paul Ricca's death date as '71 instead of '72 was a simple mistake. Check your messages, Villain. We are all on the same side here: we're all looking for the truth and new facts, which sometimes challenge old facts. It's the way it's always been. If we don't challenge each other in a respectful manner what's the purpose of what we are doing?

Speaking of dates, what year do we have DiFronzo succeeding Carlisi. Have been reading old newpapers about the Rincon bust. Indicates Carlisi might have been semi-retired for a year or two before early 1992 indictments.

[Snakes]

Carlisi was living in Florida in 1992. He still ran the Outfit through Marcello but DiFronzo was the so-called "street boss," at least according to contemporary newspaper articles. It's difficult to know when DiFronzo took control but it was 1993 at the earliest and 1994 at the latest. Remember, he was in prison himself for a year.

[Frank]

If I may be totally honest: I think the problem is people are trying to fit The Outfit's admin into one continuous unchanging grand design. Over the years on here, since 2002, I've heard it all: Chicago Consigliere, Front Boss, Under; panels; captains with 10 lieutenants and 10 soldiers under each lieutenant. Territory from Denver to the Caribbean. All under the guise of it being some grand super conspiracy that makes the Outfit monolithic. Remember when Lombardo went MIA and all these online Chicago assholes were all claiming he's here or there and that "the feds will never catch Joey."

This is not to suggest that I know more than you fine gentleman or that I'm privy to things you are not. My approach is from a historical perspective and Sicilian and mainland delinquents just operated differently just like Americans in NYC and Missouri are different. I think with less of a Sicilian influence post 1931, it provided leeway for whoever was in charge to arrange things as they wanted. Of course they would have to adhere to the national structure by having rank equivalents but as we've seen, there's always been 2-3 guys around the top that we can't place into ranks so we give them our own made up names: Top Boss, CEO, etc.

I'll make whatever you guys decide but it'll be obsolete in 10 years, just like the chart I made with Scott Burnstein back in '11 or '12 is today:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/maf ... 0530021806

I think we all agree to just put the current available facts and go with that. I don't think that any Family Lineage Chart is 100 per cent. The idea is to try to be 100 percent.

[Pete]

If I may be totally honest: I think the problem is people are trying to fit The Outfit's admin into one continuous unchanging grand design. Over the years on here, since 2002, I've heard it all: Chicago Consigliere, Front Boss, Under; panels; captains with 10 lieutenants and 10 soldiers under each lieutenant. Territory from Denver to the Caribbean. All under the guise of it being some grand super conspiracy that makes the Outfit monolithic. Remember when Lombardo went MIA and all these online Chicago assholes were all claiming he's here or there and that "the feds will never catch Joey."

This is not to suggest that I know more than you fine gentleman or that I'm privy to things you are not. My approach is from a historical perspective and Sicilian and mainland delinquents just operated differently just like Americans in NYC and Missouri are different. I think with less of a Sicilian influence post 1931, it provided leeway for whoever was in charge to arrange things as they wanted. Of course they would have to adhere to the national structure by having rank equivalents but as we've seen, there's always been 2-3 guys around the top that we can't place into ranks so we give them our own made up names: Top Boss, CEO, etc.

I'll make whatever you guys decide but it'll be obsolete in 10 years, just like the chart I made with Scott Burnstein back in '11 or '12 is today:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/maf ... 0530021806

Completely agree. Good Summary.

Agree as well been saying this since the beginning of this thread. The outfit doesn't fit exactly into the ny model. Never has and most likely never will and people get off track trying to fit them in there

[Frank]

Yes and it's hard to fit a peg when there is no hole to fit it in. Because nobody knows for sure what the position is called ,if it even had a name. Lol. I just say we can do our best. I'm not saying to give false info, but it is pretty hard to prove we are wrong. If someone can prove something wrong we all learn and gain from it.

[Snakes]

I always liked the numbering system. Just list the top guys, 1 through 5 for any given time period. It's whatever, though. This was Villain's idea so he can do what we wants with it. I'm just tossing things out there.

[Frank]

The thing with the Outfit is you could make a sound very extremely well researched history chart and the next guy could come out with another well researched chart and it would be different. I feel strong that our chart, and you guys did all the work, is a great chart, but there are those murky periods were there is conflicting info. Other Family charts have the same problems. It's a secret society they don't take announce retirement and promotion and who is on the outside.

[Frank]

Sorry should have been on the outs

[FriendofFamily]

The ironic thing is Probably the FBI will copy OUR Chart and use it!!! (LOL)

[Angelo Santino]

Well, given that this thread is now 48 pages says to me that there's going to be inconsistencies and disagreements, mostly based on conflicting intel. Two different informants/FBI reports labeling two people in the same position is a major dilemma we encounter. Perhaps rather than decide Democratically who we agree on, we can perhaps list everyone and cite it. I tried to do that with the Genovese chart last year and I'm sure it's already obsolete as there's been new discussion on Philip Lombardo etc.

As far as the New York Model and its influence on Chicago, there had to be equivalent ranks: boss, under, capo etc. Chicago as a local entity is free to do as it would want, just like Cleveland and Pittsburgh and Philly had their organizational quirks that fell outside the quintessential Mafia hierarchy, but when it comes time for national meetings or a Chicago Capo on the west coast that was probably more formal and certainly non of this top boss, ceo, counselor emeritus shit. To me these are labels that were bestowed upon men by well-intentioned outsiders trying to make sense of it. But given that these coined ranks may be necessary for clarity sake, I have no problem listing someone you guys wish to call Outfit CEO and another person you decided was official "Boss" under him. We can use quotations to differentiate between official ranks and ranks we created for clarity. Maybe this may help? And given that in the 2000's the top two guys were called 1 and 2, it may make better sense to label them that but not their predecessors who were referred to as different titles in the previous era.

We've kinda taken a big step allowing ourselves to think outside of the Mafia Model of NY and Sicily, I think we also need to allow for different arrangements and titles in different eras.

[jimmy_beans8]

Chicago is the most confusing shit I ever read up on//////and canada

[Angelo Santino]

I have to say, I got three separate parties wanting to make 3 separate Chicago charts. Nunna y'all motherfuckers agree on shit! Not on who was Boss, Top Boss, Side Boss, Chairman, Capo, Crew Boss, #1 & 2 etc. I don't even think all these parties agree on who was amico nos or not, Marco D'Amico's name is thrown around as current consig but there's disagreements over whether or not he's even straightened out. It's kinda auspicious because Chicago remains the most popular Family outside of NYC and it's still very much contested right up to present day. It speaks wonders that people can't even agree on who was boss during the late 80's and 90's even.

Looking at all the opposing lineages, everyone seems to be arguing about the same select group of individuals over what exact rank they held when. You all seem to agree more than you don't.

And as sad as it seems, I think this chart I made for 2000 is probably more accurate than not, crew wise.
https://mafiacharts.files.wordpress.com ... .jpg?w=736

[Snakes]

Ha! When you're right, you're right.