Chicago Outfit Lineage Chart 1928-2017

[Villain]

In addition, that same chart, no matter if has some conflicting infos, again proves the so-called top triumvirate (without the underboss) which was possibly created since the 40's

There have been times specifically with accardo and aiuppa and cerone that I think the outfit operated more as a committee. They would all make major decisions together. I think this is more likely than one person had final say but I seems this almost certainly went away at some point. Or maybe went away and came back. I have never seen anything that said carlisi had to get approval from accardo to do anything which makes sense as accardo was very old by the time carlisi was boss and spent most of his time in Palm Springs. Sorry I'm not intending for us to go around in a circle again on this lol

Thats a good thinking and I also thought about it but at first it felt ridiculous to me but now it feels like it might be true, meaning your "Or maybe went away and came back" statement. And yeah you're also right about Accardo being too old when Carlisi became boss, since the old man almost went to jail in 1982 and the next year he survived a heart attack and later was brought in front of an investigation committee. So what's your opinion on Alex? I mean he was still around and took his cut, mainly from the Lenny Patrick crew and we dont have any other info if he took some cut from the rest of the crews, but this guy was a former acting crew boss and also a one time member of a ruling panel and during one period was above Cerone. I've read numerous wiretapped convos from the early 1960's in which Cerone explained himself to Alex (previously to Humphreys) regarding numerous situations, meaning the Greek had some kind of bigger seniority than Cerone, unless the situation changed during the later years. So when Aiuppa and Cerone went to prison and Accardo was allegedly fully retired, do you think that Alex was somewhere up there with Carlisi and DiFronzo until 1992 when most of them went to prison? I created this so-called theory from some of Lenny Patrick's statements.

[Snakes]

Monteleone was boss at the time of that chart. It's not FBI either, it's CCC, which I still source but put less stock in. The CCC has provided good, but oftentimes contradictory, info so you have to be careful when sourcing them. That goes for aNY source, I just wanted to point out that the CCC is on a level below the FBI when it comes to reliability.

[Snakes]

Gus Alex's leadership role has been a bit overstated here, I think. I don't believe he had any direct authority over other made guys, except by proxy from the bosses. I think he was highly respected, but I don't think he was any type of boss within the Outfit, at least as far as giving orders to made guys was concerned. He was used and respected for many years by the bosses for his political influence and his opinions were valued and used to influence their decisions.

[Villain]

Gus Alex's leadership role has been a bit overstated here, I think. I don't believe he had any direct authority over other made guys, except by proxy from the bosses. I think he was highly respected, but I don't think he was any type of boss within the Outfit, at least as far as giving orders to made guys was concerned. He was used and respected for many years by the bosses for his political influence and his opinions were valued and used to influence their decisions.

I never confirmed that he was one of the top bosses during the 1980's, but instead I asked Pete on what's his opinion on that theory?

As for Alex's power being "overstated"...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... allegretti (1959)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 2&tab=page (1963)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... lex_cerone (this doc also proves that Cerone took the boss position in 1967)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 2&tab=page (1973 and click the next page)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... lex_cerone (1977/78 and its preferable to read the whole document)

So I found these files with few simple types on the MF site and in addition, there are tons of other reports stating similar things and I can hardly find some conflicting infos in most of these docs and later I'll also try to find some of the convos from the early 1960's between Cerone, Humphreys and Alex...

[Snakes]

Maybe misunderstood is a better term. I'm not sure the first source is one that is particularly accurate, especially since they initially thought that Allegretti was the top man in the Chicago rackets. He was certainly a part of the leadership but his role was more advisory towards Aiuppa and Accardo. It wasn't like Alex was telling the other bosses what to do. At least in my area of study, I can't find any instance of top guys like Cerone, Solano, LaPietra, or Pilotto being directly controlled by him. Aiuppa and Accardo used his info and allowed it to influence their decisions but there was only so far he could go as far as giving orders was concerned due to being a non-Italian.

[Villain]

I'm not sure the first source is one that is particularly accurate, especially since they initially thought that Allegretti was the top man in the Chicago rackets.

Read the whole document

[Pete]

Gus Alex's leadership role has been a bit overstated here, I think. I don't believe he had any direct authority over other made guys, except by proxy from the bosses. I think he was highly respected, but I don't think he was any type of boss within the Outfit, at least as far as giving orders to made guys was concerned. He was used and respected for many years by the bosses for his political influence and his opinions were valued and used to influence their decisions.

This is pretty much my thoughts as well. He was as influential and powerful as you could be for a non member. All the guys under him were associates. He had Italian associates under him like rainone and gio but never made guys. I think of him as similar to a capo in the respect that he had a crew and was direct with the bosses. He wasn't under anyone and could go directly to accardo, giancana, aiuppa, and carlisi. This alone is very rare for a non Italian made member. Based on the structure of the outfit according to nick calabrese a made guy would have to be under a capo and they would settle disputes with the bosses. If he did settle anything I would think he was passing on word from whoever was boss at the time. He was very close with accardo and very smart it's possible accardo would ask his opinions on certain things but that would be the extent of it. He could never order a murder or take something from someone under someone else. Also though no made guys could fuck with him either. I would take the idea that he was the boss on a ruling panel the same way I take all the reports joe ferriola was boss. Just not true

[Snakes]

Well, I will say that he could have been on the panel but it was possible to be so without being "over" other made guys.

I think he could recommend certain things, even guys being killed, but he could not have sole voice over such things. When it came to things like labor rackets or political dealings, his word was valued enough that Outfit guys listened to him but it would have been to their detriment not to.

[Pete]

In addition, that same chart, no matter if has some conflicting infos, again proves the so-called top triumvirate (without the underboss) which was possibly created since the 40's

There have been times specifically with accardo and aiuppa and cerone that I think the outfit operated more as a committee. They would all make major decisions together. I think this is more likely than one person had final say but I seems this almost certainly went away at some point. Or maybe went away and came back. I have never seen anything that said carlisi had to get approval from accardo to do anything which makes sense as accardo was very old by the time carlisi was boss and spent most of his time in Palm Springs. Sorry I'm not intending for us to go around in a circle again on this lol

Thats a good thinking and I also thought about it but at first it felt ridiculous to me but now it feels like it might be true, meaning your "Or maybe went away and came back" statement. And yeah you're also right about Accardo being too old when Carlisi became boss, since the old man almost went to jail in 1982 and the next year he survived a heart attack and later was brought in front of an investigation committee. So what's your opinion on Alex? I mean he was still around and took his cut, mainly from the Lenny Patrick crew and we dont have any other info if he took some cut from the rest of the crews, but this guy was a former acting crew boss and also a one time member of a ruling panel and during one period was above Cerone. I've read numerous wiretapped convos from the early 1960's in which Cerone explained himself to Alex (previously to Humphreys) regarding numerous situations, meaning the Greek had some kind of bigger seniority than Cerone, unless the situation changed during the later years. So when Aiuppa and Cerone went to prison and Accardo was allegedly fully retired, do you think that Alex was somewhere up there with Carlisi and DiFronzo until 1992 when most of them went to prison? I created this so-called theory from some of Lenny Patrick's statements.

Just to address a few specific things you asked. I think cerone would talk to Alex about situations because they were close and Alex was known as a smart capable guy similar to how one of us might tell someone at our job about a situation and see what they think etc. I think Alex was direct with carlisi and difronzo so in that respect he was super powerful similar to a capo but I still wouldn't have him as a boss of the outfit. He was a boss to the guys under him but not of the whole outfit, in my opinion of course

[Pete]

Well, I will say that he could have been on the panel but it was possible to be so without being "over" other made guys.

I think he could recommend certain things, even guys being killed, but he could not have sole voice over such things. When it came to things like labor rackets or political dealings, his word was valued enough that Outfit guys listened to him but it would have been to their detriment not to.

he certainly could get someone killed but asking and advocating for it just not that he could give an order himself. My thing again just based on the structure nick talked about I don't see how he could be on the panel unless it was more of a loose type thing like hey what do you think about this. What's the specific time frame we are talking? I know nick said aiuppa was boss from 71. Not sure if he addressed who was boss when he first became involved in 69 I'll look for it though

[Villain]

@Pete no, no, no you got me all wrong, I never said he was the boss of the Outfit but instead I asked you if you think that he was somewhere up there in some kind of senior adviser role, not on the top boss or boss position. As you can see that this guy had a lot of experience and leadership skills but he obviously had no chance of becoming a made guy, or even less the boss of the Outfit. But Chicago was always different, and I also dont think that Aiuppa was still the official boss of the Outfit in 1971, not according to the numerous documents...also here some other files regarding Alex's activities during the 1970's...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... _nicoletti

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... _nicoletti

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... _nicoletti

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... _nicoletti (I also believe that later Nicoletti was demoted and killed on Alex's request)

@Snakes I completely agree with your statement

[Snakes]

Early seventies.

I heard something today on the NBA pre-game show of all places that was pretty relevant to our discussion here. They were the discussing the evolution of the "center" position and how different it is from even ten years ago. Jalen Rose said that positions are there for new guys to "learn the game." You have general ideas about what the positions do but over time they have blended together. Nominally, a guy is a "center," "forward," "guard;" but on the court it is much more fluid but each guy understands his role. I think the same could be applied to our discussion here. Everyone knows their role, and law enforcement and the media use things like boss, underboss, or consigliere to make sense if it all and I think those terms (at least in the Outfit's case) have become less refined if they even definitively existed in the first place.

[Snakes]

I think we are all on the same page here, we're just taking different routes getting there.

[Villain]

@Snakes that's some really great example

I would also like to add that there was/were other and older made member/members and high level associate/associates who was/were secretly informing for the government during the 1960's and 70's, meaning theres a great possibility that Calabrese wasnt the only made member who informed for the feds

[Snakes]

Oh, definitely.