I almost hate to say it....

[Frank]

Back to Genovese lineage chart. With Catena acting for Costello in 1956, it's no wonder Genovese was pissed at Costello, also I assume Vito was passed over as acting boss in early 50,s when Costello did some short stints in jail.

[Frank]

Wasn't there a recording of Salerno telling Anthony Corallo about someone going over his head to Benny Squint and that he doesn't need this shit and that he is just trying to do a job for this Benny. I know I read it ,but I can't remember what year it was recorded. Maybe this could clear up the debate of Lombardo being shelved. Also isn't there a theory of Lombardo being boss to mid 80,s and Gigante being underboss which I didn't think was right.

[Wiseguy]

Wasn't there a recording of Salerno telling Anthony Corallo about someone going over his head to Benny Squint and that he doesn't need this shit and that he is just trying to do a job for this Benny. I know I read it ,but I can't remember what year it was recorded. Maybe this could clear up the debate of Lombardo being shelved. Also isn't there a theory of Lombardo being boss to mid 80,s and Gigante being underboss which I didn't think was right.

I don't recall off hand if Salerno was talking to Corallo or somebody else but he basically said Lombardo and Gigante had given him a job to do (effectively acting/street boss) and if they didn't like the way he was doing it they could have it back. This shows that Lombardo still held a significant amount of influence even after he stepped down. And it's well known that Gigante definitely did take over as boss in 1981.

[Frank]

Yes. I think Gigante took over in 81, but since Salerno mentioned Lombardo as more or less a superior it sounded like he was still top man. Maybe Lombardo and Gigante we're like Ricca and Accardo and Salerno was in the Giancana position.

[Frank]

This Lombardo he keeps popping up over and over for about 20 years as possible boss. Then it basically proven he wasn't maybe for a few months and then someone else is takes over.

[Snakes]

Yes. I think Gigante took over in 81, but since Salerno mentioned Lombardo as more or less a superior it sounded like he was still top man. Maybe Lombardo and Gigante we're like Ricca and Accardo and Salerno was in the Giancana position.

The problem is in attempting to label these guys like it's an exact science. At least in the cases of the Genoveses and Chicago, this seems to be less of a big deal than in other families. For example, Giancana was the "boss" and referred to as such by both his peers and law enforcement, yet Ricca and Accardo were obviously his superiors. They did not have "labels," and over the years have had a lot of terms applied to them to try to describe their position when they were simply just the "guys in charge," nevermind that Giancana was the one described as "boss." Perhaps they didn't want "boss" to be associated with them to avoid the heat but if everyone knew then what was the difference? In Chicago, and less so in the Genovese, the guys in charge are "the guys in charge," regardless of how we try to label them.

[Frank]

Yes that explains those two families perfectly

[B.]

Saw an FBI doc from 1973 that said Lombardo had previously been identified as acting underboss but was no longer. Lombardo's neighbor Eli Zeccardi had been promoted from soldier to official underboss at this time. Have you seen anything about Lombaro being acting underboss?

[HairyKnuckles]

Yes I have. In this first passage (from 1963 if i remember correctly), Lombardo is described as once have been acting as underboss while Vito Genovese was under indictment.



A second passage (from 1972, dated some time after Tommy Ryan´s murder) says that Lombardo and Tieri are the two top guys. But I can´t find the passage right now. It´s in Lombardo´s or Tieri´s FBI files. It doesn´t say specifically that Lombardo is the underboss but the info could be interpreted as Lombardo or Tieri helding the position at the time. Considering Catena was the incarcerated boss at the time, the two of them must have held the acting boss and acting underboss positions. If not acting boss/acting underboss another possibility that actually makes sense is that these two were members of a ruling panel established right after the Ryan murder. That could be what the CI was describing in the passage.

Hope that helps a little bit B.

[Angelo Santino]

Yes. I think Gigante took over in 81, but since Salerno mentioned Lombardo as more or less a superior it sounded like he was still top man. Maybe Lombardo and Gigante we're like Ricca and Accardo and Salerno was in the Giancana position.

The problem is in attempting to label these guys like it's an exact science. At least in the cases of the Genoveses and Chicago, this seems to be less of a big deal than in other families. For example, Giancana was the "boss" and referred to as such by both his peers and law enforcement, yet Ricca and Accardo were obviously his superiors. They did not have "labels," and over the years have had a lot of terms applied to them to try to describe their position when they were simply just the "guys in charge," nevermind that Giancana was the one described as "boss." Perhaps they didn't want "boss" to be associated with them to avoid the heat but if everyone knew then what was the difference? In Chicago, and less so in the Genovese, the guys in charge are "the guys in charge," regardless of how we try to label them.

Very well said.

I came in late to this thread. With both Chicago and the Genovese leaderships, it's difficult to fit everyone into the classic LCN admin, we've got a few names locked down but- as you said- there's senior members who appear to exist alongside or on top of it. We can then discuss whether this was by design or by default: did Al Capone in 1930 or Genovese in the late 1950's singlehandedly set up some superior system that carried the Outfit and Gen forward, or were their successors simply setting up their own admin based on the era it required? I read the the MF document involving Catena, Eboli and Miranda it appeared the latter to me. I seem to recall Catena's worry about "losing the family" to Eboli, whom they both seemed to have a like-dislike relationship.

Another thing to consider is that each of these group's captains have traditionally held a certain degree of autonomy, at least before 1960. When I say autonomy I don't mean just in a territorial sense. Captains remained captains and had their own authority to set up mini-staffs with personal underbosses (Chi), acting captains, drivers and messengers (Gen). Not suggesting captains in other families were excluded from this set up, but the power dynamic is different. If Joe Bonanno didn't want you to skipper anymore, you're broken down and that's that. Whereas with the Gen and Chicago, these captains maintain their own power base which makes it harder for whosoever boss and then murder becomes the only available option. To put it in perspective, it's arguably similar to the Dellacroce and Castellano relationship, separate armed camps within a group, they can dislike each other but respect, deference to superiors etc is emphasized. It's what made Cosa Nostra Cosa Nostra for these people. It's more fragile than monolithic.

I should note that these families were filled and lead by mainland Italians and Sicilians with little connection to the Sicilian Mafia, which may be why we see more derivation from the boss-under-consig system. Even though they had those ranks, how they were utilized was also different.

[Hailbritain]

Back to Genovese lineage chart. With Catena acting for Costello in 1956, it's no wonder Genovese was pissed at Costello, also I assume Vito was passed over as acting boss in early 50,s when Costello did some short stints in jail.

Also , wasn’t joe zito acting Genovese underboss for a time under gigante ?? He’s not on the lineage chart

[Frank]

Back to Genovese lineage chart. With Catena acting for Costello in 1956, it's no wonder Genovese was pissed at Costello, also I assume Vito was passed over as acting boss in early 50,s when Costello did some short stints in jail.

Also , wasn’t joe zito acting Genovese underboss for a time under gigante ?? He’s not on the lineage chart

I remember I brought that up and someone said that was not true. Remember at that time there was a leadership panel.

[Hailbritain]

Back to Genovese lineage chart. With Catena acting for Costello in 1956, it's no wonder Genovese was pissed at Costello, also I assume Vito was passed over as acting boss in early 50,s when Costello did some short stints in jail.

Also , wasn’t joe zito acting Genovese underboss for a time under gigante ?? He’s not on the lineage chart

I remember I brought that up and someone said that was not true. Remember at that time there was a leadership panel.

Capeci stated zito was acting underboss in one of his columns

[B.]

Yes I have. In this first passage (from 1963 if i remember correctly), Lombardo is described as once have been acting as underboss while Vito Genovese was under indictment.



A second passage (from 1972, dated some time after Tommy Ryan´s murder) says that Lombardo and Tieri are the two top guys. But I can´t find the passage right now. It´s in Lombardo´s or Tieri´s FBI files. It doesn´t say specifically that Lombardo is the underboss but the info could be interpreted as Lombardo or Tieri helding the position at the time. Considering Catena was the incarcerated boss at the time, the two of them must have held the acting boss and acting underboss positions. If not acting boss/acting underboss another possibility that actually makes sense is that these two were members of a ruling panel established right after the Ryan murder. That could be what the CI was describing in the passage.

Hope that helps a little bit B.

Thanks. A bit after the part that ID'd Lombardo as former acting underboss as of ~1973 seemed to indicate he was in the position at some point between the murder of Eboli and the promotion of Zeccardi.

[Wiseguy]

Back to Genovese lineage chart. With Catena acting for Costello in 1956, it's no wonder Genovese was pissed at Costello, also I assume Vito was passed over as acting boss in early 50,s when Costello did some short stints in jail.

Also , wasn’t joe zito acting Genovese underboss for a time under gigante ?? He’s not on the lineage chart

I remember I brought that up and someone said that was not true. Remember at that time there was a leadership panel.

Capeci stated zito was acting underboss in one of his columns

Not sure about the acting underboss thing but Capeci identified Zito as a captain in a 1991 column.