Arrests in NY, induction ceremony taped

[SonnyBlackstein]

I think the more likely explanation in a publicity piece is that they were trying to BS a little to make their achievement sound bigger.

Basically this.
No one's arguing the existence of the Buffalo family. It's simply worth noting how the Feds like to spin things both angles, depending on what suits their purpose at the time.

Not a huge point and as Cheech said, lets not get too sidetracked.

Does anyone know when the next leg of Damiano Zummo's legal process is? Next hearing or trial?
This could be the next release of info.

[BeatiPaoli]

To Everyone: On a completely different note, tell me if I missed something? I do not believe the New York Daily News, the New York Post, and the New York Times picked up the story of the bust--given the New York angle--in any of their editions last week. Did anyone see any articles in these 3 papers, or did I miss something? Did only Newday report it?

Regards,
BeatiPaoli

[B.]

A lack of evidence is not evidence for the activity level of a mafia organization either way. Criminal activity itself is not a prerequisite for the existence of a mafia family -- the capacity for criminal activity is, but that's different. An easier way to understand the mafia is to say that it will use any means necessary to give itself an advantage with no regard for anyone outside of the group. Often that means criminal behavior, but not always. There have been countless members, even entire families, throughout the mafia's history whose criminal involvement has been so marginal that we would never know who they were unless informants mentioned them. This includes everyone from bosses to associates.

I would have no idea what the story is in Buffalo, so this isn't an argument for their existence. "Todaro Crime Family" is a highly specific reference, but more context is needed. For all we know the organization's leadership has moved over to the Canada faction.

[B.]

Getting away from the Buffalo speculation, here are some points to consider:

- It might seem surprising that an acting captain was conducting a making ceremony, but it's likely many Montreal members were historically inducted by a captain or acting captain.

- Carmine Galante is said to have officially established the Montreal crew in the early 1950s. We don't know if he had captain status in NYC before leaving for Montreal, but by all accounts he was the original captain in Montreal during his stay there and even after he returned to NYC he was their official captain leading up to his incarceration. With all of this said, it seems possible that Galante conducted making ceremonies during his stay there. He would later go on to make members in NYC despite not having "official" boss status and was more than comfortable officiating a large number of ceremonies, so maybe he had experience with inductions in Montreal before the 1970s.

- There are no records of top Bonanno leaders in NYC traveling to Montreal to induct members. There are also no records (to my knowledge) of Montreal members traveling to NYC to be inducted. Not saying that neither of these happened, but there are no records of it that I know of. On the other hand, there is info that suggests the Bonanno leadership gave Montreal permission to induct members, which indicates that Cotroni himself may have inducted members as a captain.

- I'm not sure when Sciascia was barred from Canada, but I believe it was in the late 1980s, and according to Vitale he used Giuseppe LoPresti as his acting captain and go-between with Montreal. There is no info to my knowledge about any Montreal members being inducted between the late 1980s and Sciascia's death in 1999, so who knows if inductions were held but it seems likely that, given the books were open during this period, some Montreal guys were inducted.

- To back up the above two points, back in the 1960s, Magaddino made a complaint that suggested the Montreal crew was only supposed to be 10 members. When Sal Vitale met with Rizzuto in 2001, Vitale was surprised to find that the Montreal crew had close to 20 members, as he was under the impression there were ~10. This indicates that the Montreal crew may have inducted members without permission (or if they did have permission, Magaddino and Vitale were unaware, which is very possible given that both men had problems with the Bonanno boss), but either way my point is that these "extra" members were likely inducted by a captain or even acting captain.

Obviously we need more info on the context of Zummo's relationship to Montreal, who the inductee was, and what's going on in Montreal. But based on the limited facts we have, it seems that the Bonannos have likely always used captains/acting captains to induct members there.

[Cheech]

good info as always B. the Bonnnos having a presence in Canada always fascinated me. Cantarella in his testimony knew nothing about that faction except that it existed.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Cantarella in his testimony knew nothing about that faction except that it existed.

Interesting point.
Speaks to Montreal having probably moved out of the Bonanno's sphere of influence to somewhat an independent unit if the acting UB/panel member (IIRC) wasn't aware of the specifics or operations of that decina.

@B: good points regards the 'non issue' of a Capo or acting conducting a ceremony.

[Laurentian]

Stunning revelations on Domenico Violi, according to an intelligence police report.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2017 ... bster.html

[B.]

Cantarella in his testimony knew nothing about that faction except that it existed.

Interesting point.
Speaks to Montreal having probably moved out of the Bonanno's sphere of influence to somewhat an independent unit if the acting UB/panel member (IIRC) wasn't aware of the specifics or operations of that decina.

I don't think that tells us anything, personally. I'm sure you could have asked some leading Bonanno figures in the 1950s and 60s, when the relationship between NYC / Montreal was arguably at its prime, and they would have known little to nothing except maybe the names of Cotroni / Greco. Others may have known more. Cantarella couldn't tell you anything, but soldier Amato probably could. No doubt more people were in the loop decades ago, but you get my point.

Something else I'm curious about -- Sal Vitale listed Vito Rizzuto as the acting captain of Montreal because Rizzuto would not accept the official position and suggested his father, who Vitale apparently wouldn't accept. Since Sciascia was unable to get into Canada and his previous acting captain Joe LoPresti had been murdered for years, was Vito Rizzuto recognized as Sciascia's acting captain in Montreal before Sciascia's death? Would be interesting to know if Vitale was just calling him a defacto leader, therefore "acting captain", or if he was referring to him as acting captain because that had been his previous position before rejecting official status.

[Cheech]

My intention was not to suggest anything except he did not know.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Have to disagree on point B.

I'd believe it unusual for an admin member to be unaware of the activities of one of its decina's. 1950's or the 2000's.

[B.]

Have to disagree on point B.

I'd believe it unusual for an admin member to be unaware of the activities of one of its decina's. 1950's or the 2000's.

He was on a ruling panel with several local captains reporting to him. The ruling panel was set up to insulate Massino by having a select number of captains serve in an admin role over a handful of captains. He wasn't in a position to have a full view of everything going on.

On the other hand, Tony Urso was acting consigliere and traveled to Montreal with Vitale where he met a number of Montreal Bonanno members. Later, when Urso was acting boss, Cicale says that Urso received a $25k tribute from the Montreal decina. I don't believe Urso was necessarily in the loop on what was going on in Montreal, but he had met the crew and received tribute from them.

[Chucky]

Cicale also said that Basciano was aware of the Montreal crew's activities, and if I remember right he wanted them to kick up more.

[gohnjotti]

Stunning revelations on Domenico Violi, according to an intelligence police report.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2017 ... bster.html

So Violi was not a Buffalo member according to this article, he was the "heir apparent to the LUPPINO Crime group of Burlington."

[Frank]

Yes but the Luppino might have been a decina in the Buffalo Family.

[gohnjotti]

Yes but the Luppino might have been a decina in the Buffalo Family.

Ok, thanks Frank.