Present Day Chicago Outfit

[Snakes]

Here's a simple answer for why they made Marcello despite his mother's ethnicity: they didn't give a shit.

[Snakes]

I don't know what he would gain unless he was coached by the Feds to say it to impress the Jury. I'm just saying that part of his testimony that I read didn't make sense, especially about Tocco getting made in 1983 when he was already the Boss of the Heights Crew according to the FBI Chart in 1983.
That's all.

The chart I presume you are talking about is the 1983 one, which does list Tocco as the boss of the Heights. However, that chart is not infallible. It was made by the Chicago Crime Commission on behalf of the Illinois Attorney General, not the FBI. The CCC generally receives good intelligence but not on the level of the FBI. Roemer provided assistance but he had been out of the Chicago field office for more than 10 years so it's not like he was able to reference active FBI case files when creating it. Additionally, there are other mistakes on this chart (like most charts), so it's not like having Tocco as a boss would be an outlier.

Also, I'm not really sure what you would want Joey Lombardo to say when asked about the ceremony. Whether he did or did not participate in any "traditional" ceremony, it would be foolish of him to admit having done so considering that a big part of the trial was proving that he was part of an overarching conspiracy which was the Chicago Outfit, and admitting he was made would be equivalent to digging his own grave. He made plenty of other mistakes on the stand but talking in any type of length about how he became a member of the Outfit wasn't one of them.

[Pogo The Clown]

Yeah it is not unheard of for guys to lie about being full Italian. During this same period Joe Sodano (half Jewish) and Tommy DelGiorno (half Polish) were made in Philly. It is not lke these guys do backround checks. In NE Frank Salemme Sr. was made despite being half Irish. He later made his son frank Jr. who was only 1/4 Italian. A lot of times they don't know because they don't check or like Sankes said they simply don't give a shit.


Pogo

[Confederate]

I don't know what he would gain unless he was coached by the Feds to say it to impress the Jury. I'm just saying that part of his testimony that I read didn't make sense, especially about Tocco getting made in 1983 when he was already the Boss of the Heights Crew according to the FBI Chart in 1983.
That's all.

The chart I presume you are talking about is the 1983 one, which does list Tocco as the boss of the Heights. However, that chart is not infallible. It was made by the Chicago Crime Commission on behalf of the Illinois Attorney General, not the FBI. The CCC generally receives good intelligence but not on the level of the FBI. Roemer provided assistance but he had been out of the Chicago field office for more than 10 years so it's not like he was able to reference active FBI case files when creating it. Additionally, there are other mistakes on this chart (like most charts), so it's not like having Tocco as a boss would be an outlier.

Also, I'm not really sure what you would want Joey Lombardo to say when asked about the ceremony. Whether he did or did not participate in any "traditional" ceremony, it would be foolish of him to admit having done so considering that a big part of the trial was proving that he was part of an overarching conspiracy which was the Chicago Outfit, and admitting he was made would be equivalent to digging his own grave. He made plenty of other mistakes on the stand but talking in any type of length about how he became a member of the Outfit wasn't one of them.

Oh okay. Yes, that is the chart. I thought it came from the FBI since it was in Roemer's Book.
I see your point. On that Chart they even have the Cicero & Elmwood Park Crews lumped together as one thing which is not accurate either.

[Confederate]

Yeah it is not unheard of for guys to lie about being full Italian. During this same period Joe Sodano (half Jewish) and Tommy DelGiorno (half Polish) were made in Philly. It is not lke these guys do backround checks. In NE Frank Salemme Sr. was made despite being half Irish. He later made his son frank Jr. who was only 1/4 Italian. A lot of times they don't know because they don't check or like Sankes said they simply don't give a shit.


Pogo

That makes sense. I suppose if the guy is half Italian on his father's side and has the Italian name then they don't care and as long as his mother is White. LOL

[Snakes]

Yeah, pretty much.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Snakes what's your impression of Roemar?

Some people completely disregard him, others love him. How much of his books/what he says should we take at face value in your opinion?

[Snakes]

His older book is pretty good, and gives an accurate view of what it what was like in the formative years of LCN investigation at the bureau. He talks up his accomplishments a bit, but not as much as later on. The Accardo book is decent, worth a read I guess but it doesn't really have anything you're not going to find elsewhere. The Spilotro book is pretty bad; I don't think he had enough material to make a book length account of his subject so there is a lot of junk in there to fill out pages. Made up dialogue, etc. War of the Godfathers is fiction but wasn't advertised as such and I doubt Roemer did much to discourage that.

If the casual reader wants a good idea of what the 50s and 60s were like in the Outfit, reading his first book in tandem with Ovid Demaris' Captive City is a good start.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Cheers snakes.

[Pete]

Marcellos father was also a member or at least an associate so I don't think they would need to dig too much into his background anyways

[Slick]

They always coach their witnesses but they geberally don't instruct them to just make shit up; it's too risky. Nick slipped up on a legitimate mistake by thinking Rocky Infelise was present at the Spilotros' murders. If the defense attorneys will bite on that, you can bet they'd bite on anything else that doesn't remitely make sense.

I also have no idea where this being made twice is coming from. You're made once and that's it. Maybe someone can be promoted at the same ceremony where others are made but Nick was pretty clear in his testimony what went down at his.

I also explained that Palermo was probably acting boss of the Heights for a year or two between Pilotto's sentencing and Tocco's rise. This would refute Tocco being an "unmade" boss.

I wasn't saying you could be made twice. I agree you are only made once. I had completely forgot about Nick saying Palermo was there to bring in Tocco and I believe Guzzino too? I got to thinking and remembered what Nick said about the Spilotros' death. I also was thinking more about Pudgy being brought up at two different ceremonies. Obviously we don't have a ton of info on making ceremonies, but I find it fascinating that they had Tony come in to be promoted. It makes you wonder if this was common. Which I doubt it was.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

[Snakes]

Sorry, I mentioned the promotion thing because I knew that's what you meant. Should have specified.

I assume that they were going to offer Tony the acting GAC boss and then "make" Michael under him. It would make it "special" for the brothers, for lack of any better term.

[Pete]

Sorry, I mentioned the promotion thing because I knew that's what you meant. Should have specified.

I assume that they were going to offer Tony the acting GAC boss and then "make" Michael under him. It would make it "special" for the brothers, for lack of any better term.

Truth is they probably could have told them anything. They knew they could be killed there. They left all their jewelry and told Michaels wife if they weren't back by 9 it was no good. Michael had a gun on him. They were going pretty much no matter what. Tony especially was not the kind of guy that would say no I ain't going in

[Frank]

Today new Chicago FBI director Jeffrey Sallet laid down the gauntlet on the Chicago Outfit on channel 7 news. Said they haven't forgotten about them.

[Frank]

I'm sorry it was Wednesday. He says it's a huge mistake to overlook them because you think they are done.