Present Day Chicago Outfit

[smoker]

I don't buy that shorty wasn't made, he had his own crew.

Eboli may not have been well liked towards the end, but he was Aiuppa & Lombardos hand picked guy to take the reins. They loved him.

[Confederate]

Based upon what I have read which includes the FBI recorded conversation of Giancana making fun of the initiation Ceremony used by the East Coast Families, I think this "made thing" meant something different in Chicago. It seems to me that a guy like LaMantia who had his own sub crew and was in a supervisory position was considered made. Maybe he just didn't go through the Boy Scouts initiation Ceremony which really isn't that important. I would think your POSITION within the organization would mean a lot more than going through a Ceremony. But hey, maybe I'm wrong?

[Snakes]

Aiuppa did like Eboli but he got his nickname for a reason.

Don't know why Sr would say he wasn't made if he was. There is also that time that Shorty was basically told to scram when a bunch of heavy guys were together. Can't remember when Nick mentioned it, exactly.

[Confederate]

Based upon what I have read which includes the FBI recorded conversation of Giancana making fun of the initiation Ceremony used by the East Coast Families, I think this "made thing" meant something different in Chicago. It seems to me that a guy like LaMantia who had his own sub crew and was in a supervisory position was considered made. Maybe he just didn't go through the Boy Scouts initiation Ceremony which really isn't that important. I would think your POSITION within the organization would mean a lot more than going through a Ceremony. But hey, maybe I'm wrong?

If you believe what Giancana himself said on the FBI recorded conversation, probably none of those older guys around his time went through any kind of Ceremony. Seems like they were considered made by their position within the Outfit.
Also, somebody earlier on some other thread named the guys who were supposedly at Nick Calabrese's Ceremony and one of them was Al Tocco.
Wasn't he already the Boss of the Chicago Heights Crew in 1983? How could he have been a Boss without being considered made?
Doesn't make any sense unless the position you have within the organization is the most important and then maybe they get around to having a Ceremony later?

[cavita]

I'll have to try and find it, but I believe in Ronnie Jarrett's FBI files they talk about LaMantia and it stated that he wasn't made.

[Snakes]

I believe that Palermo was acting boss of the Heights until Tocco was made. Tocco took over pretty quickly after that.

[Slick]

When they killed the Spilotros'. They brought them in on the premise that Michael would be made and Tony would be bumped up to Capo. So maybe in Matassas case maybe he was made in 83' and bumped up in the organization in 88'. Same with Tocco, maybe he was made before 83', and 83' was him getting bumped up. I think in 83' Pilotto had already been indicted, maybe even convicted.

[Snakes]

Yeah, but Palermo representing the Heights at the meeting, plus some other sources that place him at the head of the crew during this time period, makes me think he was acting for Pilotto for a while.

[Confederate]

When they killed the Spilotros'. They brought them in on the premise that Michael would be made and Tony would be bumped up to Capo. So maybe in Matassas case maybe he was made in 83' and bumped up in the organization in 88'. Same with Tocco, maybe he was made before 83', and 83' was him getting bumped up. I think in 83' Pilotto had already been indicted, maybe even convicted.

Exactly! Tocco getting made for the FIRST TIME in 1983 doesn't make any sense at all. (Just speculation on my part) but MAYBE the Feds coached Nick Calabrese a little into saying some of these things BECAUSE no one else was credible enough to call him a liar. The Feds are not above coaching their witnesses. Maybe bringing up this Ceremony thing would make it a little bit easier to CONVINCE a Jury and get convictions. That made guy thing came up also with Marcello. I read in the transcripts that Marcello's Lawyer argued that Marcello was not considered "made" because his mother was Irish and Nick Calabrese said that the Bosses probably didn't know he was half Irish.
Some of Nick Calabrese's testimony doesn't make sense.

[Snakes]

They always coach their witnesses but they geberally don't instruct them to just make shit up; it's too risky. Nick slipped up on a legitimate mistake by thinking Rocky Infelise was present at the Spilotros' murders. If the defense attorneys will bite on that, you can bet they'd bite on anything else that doesn't remitely make sense.

I also have no idea where this being made twice is coming from. You're made once and that's it. Maybe someone can be promoted at the same ceremony where others are made but Nick was pretty clear in his testimony what went down at his.

I also explained that Palermo was probably acting boss of the Heights for a year or two between Pilotto's sentencing and Tocco's rise. This would refute Tocco being an "unmade" boss.

[Snakes]

Pilotto was in prison by '83. I believe he went away the year before.

[Confederate]

They always coach their witnesses but they geberally don't instruct them to just make shit up; it's too risky. Nick slipped up on a legitimate mistake by thinking Rocky Infelise was present at the Spilotros' murders. If the defense attorneys will bite on that, you can bet they'd bite on anything else that doesn't remitely make sense.

I also have no idea where this being made twice is coming from. You're made once and that's it. Maybe someone can be promoted at the same ceremony where others are made but Nick was pretty clear in his testimony what went down at his.

I also explained that Palermo was probably acting boss of the Heights for a year or two between Pilotto's sentencing and Tocco's rise. This would refute Tocco being an "unmade" boss.

Nobody said someone gets made twice. lol
What was meant is that it seems ridiculous that Tocco was NOT MADE BEFORE 1983. Maybe he was ALREADY made before 1983 and was promoted to being a Boss at this supposed Ceremony. I seriously doubt a guy would be made and then ALL OF A SUDDEN be a Boss but I guess anything is possible.

Based upon Giancana's opinion of the Ceremony and the probability that most of the older guys in his generation probably never went through a Ceremony, and based upon the that that Joey Lombardo said he never went through a Ceremony, I have my doubts there even was a Ceremony with a burning holy card etc. in 1983. it doesn't fit into the pattern of the Outfit. it still seems a guy is considered made by his position within the Outfit rather than going through a blood burning holy card Ceremony.
On another thread, someone said that Auippa started this Ceremony thing in Chicago and that the Underboss is always present with the Top Boss. Then, why wasn't Cerone present in 1983?
Nick Calabrese also stated that a person had to be Italian on both sides of his family. Then, Marcello's Lawyer argued that Marcello could not be a made guy in the Outfit because his mother was Irish. Calabrese stated that the top Bosses probably didn't know he was half Irish. lol
How is that possible? How could Sam Carlisi or anybody else NOT KNOW that Marcello's mom was Irish?

[Pete]

They always coach their witnesses but they geberally don't instruct them to just make shit up; it's too risky. Nick slipped up on a legitimate mistake by thinking Rocky Infelise was present at the Spilotros' murders. If the defense attorneys will bite on that, you can bet they'd bite on anything else that doesn't remitely make sense.

I also have no idea where this being made twice is coming from. You're made once and that's it. Maybe someone can be promoted at the same ceremony where others are made but Nick was pretty clear in his testimony what went down at his.

I also explained that Palermo was probably acting boss of the Heights for a year or two between Pilotto's sentencing and Tocco's rise. This would refute Tocco being an "unmade" boss.

Nobody said someone gets made twice. lol
What was meant is that it seems ridiculous that Tocco was NOT MADE BEFORE 1983. Maybe he was ALREADY made before 1983 and was promoted to being a Boss at this supposed Ceremony. I seriously doubt a guy would be made and then ALL OF A SUDDEN be a Boss but I guess anything is possible.

Based upon Giancana's opinion of the Ceremony and the probability that most of the older guys in his generation probably never went through a Ceremony, and based upon the that that Joey Lombardo said he never went through a Ceremony, I have my doubts there even was a Ceremony with a burning holy card etc. in 1983. it doesn't fit into the pattern of the Outfit. it still seems a guy is considered made by his position within the Outfit rather than going through a blood burning holy card Ceremony.
On another thread, someone said that Auippa started this Ceremony thing in Chicago and that the Underboss is always present with the Top Boss. Then, why wasn't Cerone present in 1983?
Nick Calabrese also stated that a person had to be Italian on both sides of his family. Then, Marcello's Lawyer argued that Marcello could not be a made guy in the Outfit because his mother was Irish. Calabrese stated that the top Bosses probably didn't know he was half Irish. lol
How is that possible? How could Sam Carlisi or anybody else NOT KNOW that Marcello's mom was Irish?

What would nick calabrese gain by lying about when Tocco was made? Makes no sense. there have been numerous instances of guys lying about their heritage to get made. Marcello was carlisis main guy for years if he knew which who knows if he did, I'm sure he either lied about it so jimmy could be made or it never came up. This stuff ain't that hard to figure out

[Confederate]

I don't know what he would gain unless he was coached by the Feds to say it to impress the Jury. I'm just saying that part of his testimony that I read didn't make sense, especially about Tocco getting made in 1983 when he was already the Boss of the Heights Crew according to the FBI Chart in 1983.
That's all.

[Frank]

Is there any info about when Masseria made Capone and the other Chicago guys. Did they have a ceremony or was it just Masseria saying welcome aboard and a hand shake maybe alunch or dinner or something like that.