Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 10:34 am
Honestly I think the whole Castellano-Bilotti being hated thing is way overblown by the media. If Gotti had not killed Castellano and avoiding being killed until Castellano wen't away he would have been demoted and it would have been business as usul under Tommy Gambino and Bilotti.
I think you're conflating an issue. Castellano, I agree, was not nearly as despised as the media/Gotti propaganda would have you believe. Though there was the Neil (blue collar) v Paul ('white') division within the family, I think this has been considerably overblown.
Bilotti and the contempt he was held in, was not however. I think the lack of respect for Bilotti holding UB was similar to Bill Bonanno holding consig. They both held titles undeserved. Without Paul on the street I think there is a case to be made that his security in holding/maintaining that position could be legitimately questioned.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 10:34 amBut in that case there was no attempt at a violent overthrow of an imprisoned Boss. Orena overstepped his bounds as Acting Boss by demoting a bunch of Persico loyalists and refusing to step down when asked by the Boss. It was the Persico Faction that resorted to violence by trying to kill him and overhrow his new regime that kicked off he war.
Can we get a third party to clarify? I thought The Columbo war was kicked off by the consig (Sessa) being asked to poll the captains on Vic taking over and Sessa instead went and told Persico?
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 11:10 am
Can we get a third party to clarify? I thought The Columbo war was kicked off by the consig (Sessa) being asked to poll the captains on Vic taking over and Sessa instead went and told Persico?
That is correct from what I have read.
Btw wasn't it Gotti who encouraged Orena to take over as boss of the Colombo's?
Obama's a pimp he coulda never outfought Trump, but I didn't know it till this day that it was Putin all along.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 11:10 am
Can we get a third party to clarify? I thought The Columbo war was kicked off by the consig (Sessa) being asked to poll the captains on Vic taking over and Sessa instead went and told Persico?
That also happened. Around that time he also demoted some Persico Capos and put his own people in as Capos. He was also bad mouthing Carmine Persico and trying to get him removed as Boss. So there multi factors that kicked it off.
Here are some good tidbits B. posted a while back from some of the informants.
- Gravano, D'Arco, and Ambrosino all testified that Orena's goal was to become official boss, which is what started the war. Apparently Orena began publicly speaking ill of Carmine Persico with the intention that the Commission would remove him as boss. Orena referred to Persico as a rat for admitting the existence of Cosa Nostra and for talking to a Daily News reporter, plus his talks of doing an interview with 60 Minutes. Gravano was aware of all of this as it was happening and understood Orena's intent.
- In 1991, Carmine Persico sent word that his son Allie Boy would become boss upon his projected release date in 1993. This strained tensions in the family and Orena told Carmine Sessa to begin disparaging Persico to the Colombo capos. He told him to begin referring to Persico as "a rat who should be knocked down", specifically. Sessa instead reported this to capo Teddy Persico.
- When Orena heard that Sessa had refused his order and met with Teddy Persico, he planned to stage a making ceremony where in reality Sessa would be murdered Goodfellas style.
- Sessa heard of Orena's plan to murder him and gathered a hit team in June 1991 who waited outside of Orena's home to kill him. Orena as we well know spotted them and fled. Another Persico hit team was supposed to kill an Orena captain that night but also failed, which caused the hit team to flee to a New Jersey hotel.
- After these attempted murders, the Gambino, Lucchese, and Genovese set up a committee to mediate the dispute. Both Orena and Sessa attended the first meeting, but Sessa refused to attend the subsequent meetings. Orena attended all of the meetings. The Luccheses and Gambinos supported Orena and put the responsibility on him to maintain peace as he controlled more soldiers and was more eager to go to war.
- The "peace" finally ended when an Orena hit team led by Bill Cutolo shot at Greg Scarpa.
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Rocco wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2017 4:44 pm
The man took an oath ! Bahahahahaha. Got news for you . There is no such thing as Santa Claus too Oh yeah the Easter Bunny isn't real either. lol
Sammy would not have flipped for a 10yr sentence. He would have took that I believe that. You must be a Gotti Fan. Keep reading those Gotti books. Its all horsehit. Gotti was the #1 problem.
Don't assume so much Rocco, I just tell it like I see it..
The history of Castellano is written by Gravano who was trying to make a justification for why they killed him and especially why he and De Cicco got involved because it is clear why Gotti and co killed him.
I think he said mostly lies. So the story of Castellano said cops are brave to Gravano and De Meo I think is probably lies. The murder of the captain in Connecticut is probably justified but he wanted to pretend it is not so. Castellano and Bilotti hated by the family is probably only true for the group around Gotti and Gravano and De Cicco and Di Bernardo took advantage of the situation but they didn't have any reason to be against Castellano. I'm sure even the murder of John Simone and the shoes story may have lies in it - it will not surprise me if the shoes are expensive and they stole them.
Even statements about Failla and Marino they are cowards is lies because they were opposed to the murder of Castellano so he needs to put them in a bad light. One article in New Yorker magazine said Failla was planning to kill Gotti Jr in 1998 but the FBI arrested Gotti Jr and saved him.
Already B. found De Cicco is probably an informant so I think we need to carefully evaluate the statements from Gravano about those days.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 10:34 am
Honestly I think the whole Castellano-Bilotti being hated thing is way overblown by the media. If Gotti had not killed Castellano and avoiding being killed until Castellano wen't away he would have been demoted and it would have been business as usul under Tommy Gambino and Bilotti.
And the Columbo reference was to illustrate an attempt at a violent overthrow of an imprisoned boss. It's called an analogy.
But in that case there was no attempt at a violent overthrow of an imprisoned Boss. Orena overstepped his bounds as Acting Boss by demoting a bunch of Persico loyalists and refusing to step down when asked by the Boss. It was the Persico Faction that resorted to violence by trying to kill him and overhrow his new regime that kicked off he war.
Pogo
It was way over blown. He was hated by the Gotti crew maybe? Sammy didn't have any problems with him until he heard GOtti was gonna kill him . Gravano was at the Whitehouse all the time. So was DeCicco. And they both profited by having a good relationship with Paul. They saw Gotti was dead set on killing Paul because he pretty much had to. And they just saw an opportunity. Paul was respected by both Westside and the Luccheses. And they all made money with him. Big money.
Rocco wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2017 4:44 pm
The man took an oath ! Bahahahahaha. Got news for you . There is no such thing as Santa Claus too Oh yeah the Easter Bunny isn't real either. lol
Sammy would not have flipped for a 10yr sentence. He would have took that I believe that. You must be a Gotti Fan. Keep reading those Gotti books. Its all horsehit. Gotti was the #1 problem.
Don't assume so much Rocco, I just tell it like I see it..
Sorry.... the Man took an oath was fuckin funny. Most of those guys would thru their own mother under a bus if they had too. Never mind their fellow criminal associates.
big gus said from his source frank was a c.i...that is how gus gets killed..his source was right on for years..not sure if gus made it up or it was true ..but he should have known he needed real proof not his word to get frank killed..unlees the g lets loose with info we will never know
sammy blamed everything on everyone else..one fact is true.....he killed his own loyal men...gotti killed non of his guys..except willie boy..gotti had to be scrathcing his head when sam came to him to kill another one of his own crew..sam is evil..gotti a terrible boss..sam and gas belong in the same cell together
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 11:39 amGravano, D'Arco, and Ambrosino all testified that Orena's goal was to become official boss, which is what started the war. Apparently Orena began publicly speaking ill of Carmine Persico with the intention that the Commission would remove him as boss. Orena referred to Persico as a rat for admitting the existence of Cosa Nostra and for talking to a Daily News reporter, plus his talks of doing an interview with 60 Minutes. Gravano was aware of all of this as it was happening and understood Orena's intent.
- In 1991, Carmine Persico sent word that his son Allie Boy would become boss upon his projected release date in 1993. This strained tensions in the family and Orena told Carmine Sessa to begin disparaging Persico to the Colombo capos. He told him to begin referring to Persico as "a rat who should be knocked down", specifically. Sessa instead reported this to capo Teddy Persico.
- When Orena heard that Sessa had refused his order and met with Teddy Persico, he planned to stage a making ceremony where in reality Sessa would be murdered Goodfellas style.
- Sessa heard of Orena's plan to murder him and gathered a hit team in June 1991 who waited outside of Orena's home to kill him. Orena as we well know spotted them and fled. Another Persico hit team was supposed to kill an Orena captain that night but also failed, which caused the hit team to flee to a New Jersey hotel.
- After these attempted murders, the Gambino, Lucchese, and Genovese set up a committee to mediate the dispute. Both Orena and Sessa attended the first meeting, but Sessa refused to attend the subsequent meetings. Orena attended all of the meetings. The Luccheses and Gambinos supported Orena and put the responsibility on him to maintain peace as he controlled more soldiers and was more eager to go to war.
- The "peace" finally ended when an Orena hit team led by Bill Cutolo shot at Greg Scarpa.
bronx wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 6:16 pm
big gus said from his source frank was a c.i...that is how gus gets killed..his source was right on for years..not sure if gus made it up or it was true ..but he should have known he needed real proof not his word to get frank killed..unlees the g lets loose with info we will never know
Do you remmember where was big gus from? And is he in any relation with Joseph Sclafani that went to the Decavs?
